waynebiker
new member
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 31
Loc: usa
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If you were going to build a custom set of wheels...for racing, fast group rides, etc... I have a couple of questions:
1. who would you have build them?
2. what hubs and number of spokes?
3. what spokes ( brand, bladed, oval , type of lacing, etc...)
4. rims
Probably will be clinchers...fyi
Edited by waynebiker (12/27/04 01:35 AM)
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mkg
new member
Reged: 01/14/04
Posts: 17
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Have a look at American Classic. I'm counting the days to my second set.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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Which is it? For Racing, for training, or both?
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OnYerLeft
new member
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 35
Loc: CA, USA
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i had dave thomas build me a set of wheels and so far i'm very happy with them. they're reasonable in price (around $550) and light (1460 grams). go to www.speeddream.com and read about his wheels. mine came with white industries hubs, velocity rims and wheelsmith spokes. it's best that you talk to dave himself. he's very accommodating and informative. he can really customize your wheels to your style of riding.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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My clincher wheels are DT Swiss wheels that I bought on eBay as a cheeper alternative to the SpeedDream wheels. They are really responsive wheels and I like them a lot. They have required minor, easy-to-do truing during the brake-in period. But for a sub-1500 gram clincer wheelset they are quite tough. They are a real joy to ride: real easy to control the bike and pretty aerodynamic, and light enough to spin-up fast. They have DT 240s hubs, spokes, and rims. The seller has some MB wheels on eBay now; item 7116058829 was what I bought (you can enter that number in eBay's search engine and see them). They are fast enough to race on too (although I use Zipp 202s as race wheels). There is a picture in the photo gallery of them. The parts would cost about $700 separately, and I paid only $429.
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Bruce
contributor
Reged: 12/27/03
Posts: 133
Loc: North of NYC
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Why build a set of wheels when you can get much better wheelsets commercially?
Wheels have evolved to the point where you can no longer make a hand made wheel as light as a company with more resources can design and build a wheel. The high end of the custom wheel market uses carbon rims that are not generally available to hand builders. I would not recommend carbon rims for what you want to do, you should stick with metal clichers.
The problem with a really light wheel set is you have to save grams somewhere. The hub and the spokes are two good places to do this. The problem with really light metal spokes is they tend to break. Also reducing the spoke count produces a lighter wheel, but also a more fragile one. Losing weight on the hubs is good, but weight on the outside of the wheel gives more bang for the buck, hence carbon rims.
I have been riding a pair of Topolino clinchers since mid summer and have been extremely happy with them. They are strong and stiff, yet more comfortable than metal spoked wheels, since the carbon spokes absorb road vibrations. At 1390 grams, they are the lightest metal clinchers you will find. Reynolds makes a pair of carbon clinchers at 1350 grams, but they have to drastically reduce the spoke count to get there, and you still have a carbon rim to deal with.
I use the Topos as an every day wheel and they are still perfectly true. Since they are so light, it makes a big difference in my hill climbing ability. I recommend them for what you are looking for. A very nice where.
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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I think most people build wheels these days because they can get a good set of wheels for less money than a set of high end boutique wheels.
Don't get me wrong, all of my bikes (except the tandem) have boutique wheels - there are a lot of good ones out there - but most of them cost 700 to 850 bucks. You can build a set of good wheels that are almost as light as the Topolinos for about $550. That's a large percentage savings.
If I was going to build a set, I would go with American Classic hubs, Velocity Fusion rims, and DT or Sapim spokes. I have Am Classic hubs on my Rolf Elan wheels, they are sweet hubs. The 25mm tall Fusion rims are very strong, and are a good compromise between aero and light weight at about 450g.
As far as the lightest aluminum clinchers you can get, Rolf Prima Elans are (according to their respective websites) 100 grams lighter than the Topolinos. They are quite stiff, and have hubs that are generally thought to be more reliable than the Topolinos. The Topolinos do have a more comfortable ride though.
If you are not a weight weenie, you might consider Campy Neutrons. They weigh about 1475g, but they are durable and very comfortable. They come with Campy or Shimano freehubs. They are selling the Shimano version at Cambria Bicycle Outfitters for $500, which is a good $150-200 less than everyone else.
Have Fun,
Mike
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Mike, no way those Neutrons are really 1475g. I bet that is about 100-125g low. Also, the only difference in a Neutron and a Proton other than several hundred dollars is about 60g saved in a lighter hubset. That is pretty much worthless weight savings for a substantial $$premium.
FWIW, have a set of Elan Primas that weigh 1405g with rim strips. Weighed them at home. Claimed weight was 1390g...not bad.
I've weighed several wheelsets and the real weights are rarely what's posted on internet sites or even manufacturers sites. Campy and Mavic are two that come to mind.
I've also weighed handbuilt wheels that weighed about 100g more than the claimed sum total of their parts. What is that all about? Grease?
BTW, I have a set of Protons and they are a great wheel. I'm sure the Neutrons are as well...I just wouldn't pay the premium. Another great (IMO) prebuilt is the DA 7800. Comfortable and fast. It weighs about 1600g but really feels lighter.
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Vax,
I haven't weighed the Elans, the 1295g is the claimed weight on the Rolf Prima website. The 1395g claim on the Topolinos is from their website. I'm sure both of these claims are without rimstrips and skewers.
As far as the Neutrons go, the claimed weight (on multiple websites) includes the record skewers, so I subtracted 125g off the number. It was late at night, and I made a math mistake. I should have said 1550g.
I agree that the Neutrons are not worth the premium over the Protons, but on sale at $500 is ,IMHO, a fair price, and compares favorably to a custom wheelset value-wise.
You are certainly right about manufacturer's claimed weights. I have a pair of Ksyriums that supposedly weigh 1600g. They are actually 1800 without skewers.
I've heard nothing but good things about the new Shimano wheels. My only reservation is that they are not 9 speed compatible. If I bought a pair, I would only be able to use them on one of my bikes.
Anyway, my original point was that you can build a nice set of wheels for about $550. For many, that makes it hard to justify $800 for a boutique set.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Oops you caught my mistake. My Rolfs weigh in at 1305g per pair with rim strips...so that is pretty close to claimed weights. My Ksyrium SSC weigh about 1600g, almost exactly what my DA 7800 weigh with rim strips.
Yes, sadly the DA wheel is only for 10sp...as I still have more than a few 9 sp. road bikes that I ride.
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dah
new member
Reged: 01/09/04
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Bruce wrote:
Why build a set of wheels when you can get much better wheelsets commercially?
Wheels have evolved to the point where you can no longer make a hand made wheel as light as a company with more resources can design and build a wheel.
While not really applicable to the question since I only use tubulars I am curious what company makes a 965g wheelset for $1400 or a 1030g set for about $1250? Granted it took some worldwide part sourcing to get the parts and prices I wanted but the point is it's not that hard to come up with a better wheel than a factory one.
The only "factory" wheel I don't think I could beat, and even then only for stiffness, would be the new Lightweight Obermayer wheels (~1020g). But for about $4500-5000 when they become available that extra money could almost buy a custom D-fly.
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bfd
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 77
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I'm going to have to agree with dah, if you want "lightweight", for the money boutique wheels offer no advantage.
If you really want lightweight, tubular wheels are really the only way to go. For example, using a Record 32h rear hub (251g WITHOUT SKEWERS), DT 15/16 (1.8/1.6mm) db spokes, aluminum alloy nipples and a "light" tubie rim, i.e., FiR ST-120L (formerly Isidis), 320-330g; Torelli Dominator SL (made by Ambrosio), 340-350g; Ambrosio F20 Chrono, 320g; and Wolber has a 320-330g rim, you can easily built up a wheelset as light, if not lighter than most boutiques.
One advantage that boutique wheels do offer over hand-builts is if you want low-spoke, aero rims. Its pretty hard to find rims with less than 24h and aero. About the only one I can think of is Ritchey rims, and those are only available in 24h and really are not that aero.
Besides price, another disadvantage of boutiques is replacement cost. If you crash or damage a rim or spokes, try pricing the cost of a replacement. Mavic Kyserium (sp?) rims start at like $150 EACH; Campy replacment rims are in the $180-250 range, EACH. Further, boutiques may or may not have proprietary spokes which can be very, very expensive, and really offer no advantage over DT or wheelsmith db spokes.
Bottom line, if ya got the dough and boutiques get ya riding, then get it!
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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First of all I think you exaggerate the price of the replacement rims. My buddy has repaired two Ksyrium in the lbs and I doubt either time it was >$100 including rim. Secondly propietary spokes don't cost that much. What are you talking about here? A complete wheel rebuild from scratch?
You may be able to build up that ultralight wheel on your own but that doesn't neccessarily make it a better wheel. First off who's going to build it? Who will stand behind it when it fails? Is it a stronger wheel? Boutique rims are often had in offset designs allowing for more even spoke tensioning.
No matter what your choice, if you buy local, you have a shop to stand behind the product and be your advocate. Good luck with mail order. I personally don't like the idea of shipping wheels out of state because they go out of true. A good shop should be able to repair any wheel they build up or any boutique wheel they sell.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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First of all a well packed wheeelset can be shipped safely. You get a purpose designed box, fill the thing up with newspaper, and ship it priority mail for $20, and it gets there true and round out of the box. No problem there.
The problem with replacing spokes on boutique wheels is that sometimes you have to buy a whole set. If you're talking something kind of unusual like a Campy Eurus, that can be like $80. If you're talking a common item like a Ksyrium spoke then it is not likely you'll have to buy that whole set. I don't know what a replacement wheel costs but I've heard it can be ~$150 too. A LBS offers insurance for the Kysriums, for +8% of the purchase price, free repair/replacement for 2 years no questions asked.
Again, I'm really happy with my DT wheels that I got for $450. They stand up to commuting and are fast enough for group training rides. I can spin a wrench well enough to keep them true and round if I bang them up a bit.
For race day, I've always loved the Zipps. I won a race on the old 440s back in 1995, blew people away in a 45 mph sprint (downhill run in, flat last 225 meters). And you can build up with your choice of hubs/spokes if you don't like the factory specs. If I had my druthers I'd have a set of each: 2s, 3s, 4s, a disk rear and 808 front for TTs. And have you checked their new crankset, it is 397 grams and I bet it is stiff as heck! And their 2005 wheels are dimpled! And made in the USA. The bottom line for me was that I didn't want to spend $800 for training wheels - now race wheels, that is different, for race wheels, $800 is kinda cheap. Depends on where you get your ya-yas out, eh?
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bfd
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 77
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vaxn8r wrote:
<First of all I think you exaggerate the price of the replacement rims. My buddy has repaired two Ksyrium in the lbs and I doubt either time it was >$100 including rim>
Replacement rims for some, if not most boutiques can be very expensive. Want proof? How about Campy rims. If you crash or damage your neuron, proton, electron or eurus wheel, expect to pay $180+ for EACH RIM, and that's at a discount mail order place:
http://www.branfordbike.com/wheels/wheel9.html#item2
AEBikes dicounts QBP products and has Campy rims starting at about $165:
http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&Category=527&Brand=60&type=T
I don't know of any online source for Ksyerium rims, but my lbs and others have quoted about $150 PER RIM. If your lbs sells them for ">$100", that's a good lbs.
With regard to proprietary spokes, as someone else stated, in most cases you're buying a "spoke kit", and its gonna cost. Again, citing Campy, who has proprietary spokes, it does offer a
"mini-spoke kit" that start as low as $20 on up:
http://www.branfordbike.com/wheels/wheel9.html
again, AEBikes may be a bit cheaper:
http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&Category=470&Brand=60&type=T
Again, if you got a lbs that will sell you one spoke, then that's a good shop.
The main problem with boutique wheels is you are not necessarily getting "more" for your money. If you *think* a set of boutiques make you faster, well, then its probably worth it. Just remember, it is going to be more expensive.
In contrast, if you're lucky enough to have a good builder in your area, I have a couple, then that is the best way to get a great set of wheels for alot less $$$....
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I have a set of Shimano 7700 wheels and I like them. Fortunately I only paid $150 used.
I tour on my bike and I would not use them however. I'd take my good old 32 spoke wheels. I was on a week long ride and a rider had a problem with a fancy wheel. He rode in a car for 3 days until we got somewhere with the Campy parts needed.
I think when it comes right down to it the answer is: 6 or a half dozen. A case can be made either way.
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elvecchio
new member
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 2
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I gotta disagree with Bruce when it comes to wheels, 'outta the box' or made by a custom wheelbuilder.
Yes, some 'boutique' wheels can be lighter but for what price?
Most are $300 to $2000 more expensive. A lot of money to spend to save 200-300 grams.
Another problem is that they use propriatary parts that may or may not be supported by the manufacturer in the future. If the rim wears out(and it will if it's aluminum and you use rim brakes), and the company is bust or have gone onto another 'product, your hub will be an expensive pen holder.
Lastly, these wheels try to be designed for everyman, every rider regardless of weight, riding style or use.
It's hard to beat a well made, designed for you, custom wheelset. It will be as light, perform as well, use standard rims, spokes and hubs and will cost less. If the boutique wheelset IS in the $500 range then undoubtedly the hubs will be substandard to the Campagnolo/Shimano equivalent.
I agree that finding an accomplished wheelbuilder can be daunting, but like a great auto mechanic, once you have found this person, you will not be disappointed.
Peter Chisholm
Co-Owner
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
Republic of Boulder
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 710
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Even though I have a pair of American Classic 420 wheels on my Ottrott, I am in 100% agreement with Peter. With every bike I've owned, I've spec'd a set of built-for-me (weight and riding style)wheels using standard hubs (Ultegra or D/A), spokes (14/15/14) and rims (Open Pro) knowing that if I have a problem I can limp home and have it fixed at virtually any decent LBS. Boutique wheels, like my American Classics, are pure vanity, image and should be rationalized as such. And expensive.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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The AC Wheels also tell the world you watch your weight! 
I bought my Shimano wheels used so I didn't have to spend big bucks. I really like them. However when the cups go the wheels go. They do not sell the hub shells so there is nothing you can do.
I'm a hand built wheel person as well. 
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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I'm sure there are some fine custom wheel builders out there. But it sure is an expensive proposition if you get stuck with a bad wheelset and you're shipping back and forth, retruing, rebuilding. Over the last 25 years I've had about 2 really superb hand-built wheelsets. They were worth every penny. OTOH, I've had at least 10 sets if not more, that routinely needed truing and a couple which required complete rebuilds due to breaking spokes. I got very tired of the high-maintenance. I've also run into the recurring problem of The Mavic "pop" from several sets of "custom wheels". That "pop" will drive anyone crazy!
I'm now on my 5th set of "boutiques". Two Proton sets, Ksyrium SL, DA 7800 and Rolf Elan. I've never done a thing to any of these except for routine hub maintenance and replacing a bent (rock damage) Proton spoke with a spoke which the shop had on hand. I mean, put any of these wheels on the bike and forget about 'em. Light and durable...what more do you want?
Again, I'm sure there are wheel mavens out there but I think by far you're safer with a big name "boutique" wheelset. In my limited experience anyway.
Final note. I'm not big on mail order anything. If my shop sells them they also service them, stand behind them and make them right. You don't get that on the net.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Hello Forum,
Having noted all the posts in this article, something becomes really apparent here, from the replies written it seems that most people here dont build wheels themselves, and to this end, it must be considered a "dark art" for them.Its really its quite simple and you can quickly learn to build or maintain your own wheelsets if you take the time to figure out the art of wheel building.
Also noted here is that everyone is obsessed with saving that extra few minor grams of weight as if it makes such a super difference.
The issues of reliability and slightly heavier wheels versus ultra lightweight racing ones?? are coming to the forefront here and this old debate can go on forever.
Ok lets look at something in perspective here, you save 1000 grams on the newest latest superlight wheelset, and then you put on two full water bottles on the bike???? now what, the bike gained back all the weight and then some.
For speciality events such as time trials, aero wheel sets are a must,basically because you need to be as aerodynamic as possible and create minimum drag, but for bunch racing and general riding its possible to build a decent set of racing/training wheels for a reasonable price at a reasonable weight, and still keep spoke count at 28 in the rear and front.
At least this way the standard issue parts you select are not going to be some super exotic unobtainium in a few years, that will render your investment obsolete.
The few boutique wheels i did buy and promptly sold off were a royal pain right out of the box, either dished wrong or the spokes were too slack or too tight, or just plain wobbling, needless to say i had to literally set them up properly before a first ride on them.
I like building my own wheels, and in all the years ive worked on them ive never had a wheelset of mine fail,not counting the odd spoke or two that will break eventually with high mileage. Its therefore possible to have two good sets of wheels built up for less than the price of some exotic boutique wheelsets,but then again for some riders this just wont do, as there is no WOW factor.
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Its time to ride.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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"The few boutique wheels i did buy and promptly sold off were a royal pain right out of the box, either dished wrong or the spokes were too slack or too tight, or just plain wobbling, needless to say i had to literally set them up properly before a first ride on them."
What were they? First problems with Treks now with mysterious failing "boutique" wheels...
I don't get the water bottle argument. Unless you're implying when you make and ride your own wheels you don't need to drink any water???
Sorry for being a bit facetious but your post sounded a bit condescending. Sorry if I read it wrong.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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You mentioned that you had two sets of Protons. Is this because you were particularly happy with them? The price on them is so much less than the Neutron I can't help but wonder how they compare. By any chance did you get to try both at some point? 
I think when we were talking hand-built wheels some of us were thinking of hand-built local wheels. I agree we need to support our LBS if they are a top shop. Otherwise they won't be there any longer. 
One last question on the Protons and it is a subjective answer. Do they feel light and responsive? It has seemed to be that wheels of the same weight can have different "feels." Some light responsive and alive and some a deadness. Does any of this make sense?
Have a nice weekend.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Vaxn8r
The 'boutique'wheels i referred to in my post were as follows:
Two pairs of Mavic Krysiums wheels SSC model, both sets needed retruing,and redishing right from the box, both sets were also sold.
I also had a set of Mavic Cosmics, these had axial and radial runout problems right out of the box, as well as needing redishing,there were design issues with this wheelset too, since later versions had the rear spoke count increased to 20.
Then there were some Mavic Cosmos, these were the worst i ever saw, with very poor spoke tension from the factory, front tension was way to tight and back was way to slack, i even relaced the whole rear wheel so the spokes lap over each other to give it some extra lateral strength, this definately helps the rear wheel.
I did keep my '01 Spinergy SR3 wheelset because of the excellent FiR rims, but the rear hub design was lousy so i fitted in a Record hub with wheelsmith spokes 3 crossed on both sides, it now works well as both a training and racing wheelset. Lastly the wheelset that annoys me the most is my Corima four spoke rear wheel, when compared to the FRONT one, its a wiggle nightmare, but unfortunately being a full carbon wheel its just something that i have to live with.
The situation with the reference to the water bottle issue is very simple, DONT sacrifice durability in any wheelset for a few miserly grams, its really not worth it and its almost impossible to 'feel' the slight weight difference.
Finally consider this, two wheels both using the same brand and model hubs and rims and spokes, except one has four spokes more than the other, which one is how much lighter? More holes drilled in a rim and a hub will make these parts lighter as well so when you factor in all the parts it roughly equates to the weight of approximately two spoke nipples heavier on the wheel with the extra spokes, do you think you can actually feel that when riding it.
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Its time to ride.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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No, I don't think you can feel the difference of 4 spokes. But 4 spokes wouldn't quite add up to a pound would it?
You've had a lot of bad luck with wheels. I've had a 2 nightmare wheelsets which both were rebuilt....out of probably 15+ wheelsets over the years. I've been using prebuilts for the last 5 years due to several custom wheelsets which frankly were just too high-maintenance. I have had zero problems with prebuilts, over many thousands of miles and I weigh anywhere between 180-190lbs.
I know for a fact that a great custom wheelset can be built. But I also feel you underestimate the dependability of prebuilts. I guess, like your experience with Treks, your story doesn't ring true to what I and many others have experienced.
I think if you buy a prebuilt from Campy, Shimano or Mavic you are very safe in terms of quality. Whether it's worth it or not is up to you. After 25 years of riding I feel it is.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 710
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Vax: I think he's taking a correspondense course in writing for Bicycling Magazine.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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You know its what you also weigh that makes a wheelset more durable or not as well, but most of my reliability issues have been with the rear wheel, something that did not get much if any mention in the forums either. Naturally a 200 plus pound rider is going to get brake block rub on a rear wheel with a radial spoke pattern on the left side easier in hard accelerations and hill climbs, than say a lighter person of 150 pounds. For the best reliability in a rear wheel its a proven fact that a cross and overlapped spoke pattern on both sides of the hub is more sturdy, since this gives more strength to the offset dished wheel.
Therefore with keeping this design in mind, to use a radial spoking pattern on any side seems contrary, since the windup created by driven torque at the hub stretches those radial spokes easier, and creates a weaker overall tension faster in the wheel.
I had tried building a rear wheel back in 1987 with a 36 hole Record large flange hub that had a radial lacing pattern on the left side, however reliability issues were serious enough that spokes were being replaced on that side at least every 100 miles (about 2 rides), and also eventually the flanges had started to develop cracks as well.A quick change back to a new hub and a traditional 3 cross pattern on both sides stopped the problem immediately.
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Its time to ride.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Lon, I think the Campy Proton has to be the best value for a wheelset you can find. Though they list for $500 you can often find them for closer to $300. At the lower price how can you compete with that?
I have only good things to say about Protons. They feel light, but are not exceptionally so. Front 705g rear 1040g, measured at home without skewers. They are comfy for long rides. Have the exact same rim as the Neutron which gives offset holes on the rear for a stronger build. What I can say is if you like the feel of standard 32 spoke wheels, I think you will also like the feel of the Proton. I transitioned from Record hubs/32 spoke/Open Pros to Protons and felt the Protons climbed marginally better out of the saddle and descended the corners with a more positive feel, despite being 24/28 spoke. Still riding around they feel more like a standard 32 spoke setup then most other prebuilts.
Down side? I find Campy rims are tougher to get tires on and off. I almost always need a lever and then you risk....you know what. Then again...no spoke "pop" like you sometimes get with Open Pros.
I'm sure Neutrons would ride exactly the same...but then you pay quite a bit more and as far as I can tell are only upgrading the hubs.
One final note on subjectivity of wheel "feel". My Ksyrium SSC and DA 7800 weigh within a few grams of each other. The DA flat out feels like a faster wheelset. Every time. Could that be quantified? I don't know but it feels that way. And I ride with a ton of people that swear by their Ksyrium. Go figure...
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Hey guys...
After reading the posts since this thread came out it is appearant to me that what one person feels is not the same as another. This very thing came out plenty times when the subject of CF seatposts have come out. Some claim they can feel the difference a CF post over an aluminum or other post, when other say they could not. Who is right? Yes, wheel one may be lighter than wheel two, and wheel one may be more aero than wheel two, but these two things do not guarantee that wheel one is faster or better than wheel two, especially in all riding conditions. How would you rate a wheel if one measured faster than another, but the losing wheel "felt" faster, despite being measurably slower?
I think we would all agree that a lighter wheel is better than a heavier one. Whether a boutique wheel is better than a custom built one is comparing apples to oranges. If you would compare a custom set of wheels between two wheelbuilders, all things being equal, your decision would boil down to who has a better reputation, who has more experience and which costs less. How do you compare a set of custom wheels to a set of boutique wheels that are most likely machine made using that critieria? It is simply not a very fair comparison to make.
Bottom line, to me, is that if you can afford a boutique wheelset these days, you have a lot of great choices available, however it will not guarantee a won race or a superlative group ride over using a custom wheelset. It is the engine, ultimately, that gets you there first, not just a fancy set of wheels. That being said I would not argue against the psychological advantage that belief can play into this equation. That is a debate for another thread. 
Okay, I am done venting, now it's time to ride...later!
...Mark
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Thanks for such a well thought out and excellent response. Just guessing and reading it seemed to me that the Proton was a great deal.
Now another "feel" question. Going from the Record Hub to the Proton (Chorus?) hub could you tell a difference? I've always wondered that.
I can understand the K and 7800 statement. I had a pair of Fir SRG 30 built and they rode very much like the way the K is described. What was interesting is although they did not "feel" fast they really were as fast as my other wheels. My conclusion was that they were so stiff that the lack any flex took away the "lively" feeling. That is just a guess. I preferred my 7700 to them. Also the Shimano Wheels have the nipples inboard which moves the the rotating weight into the hub. It makes them easier to accelerate.
If I ever get any money again...I'm going to try a Proton set I think.
P.S. I did not mention up front but my wheel builder who really is outstanding rides "boutique" wheels. Of course he doesn't pay what we do (plus freebies as he races & now manages/races) but he feels that the current quality of factory wheels is such that there really aren't the same reasons to build wheels. However he weighs 140 pounds and is 6 foot to 6'1". That does open up more options than a "fire plug" such as myself.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Lon, I can tell a difference in smoothness when I spin the Protons in my hand vs when I spin the Records. Having said that, the Protons are far from coarse and will spin for a couple of minutes in your hand on just a flick of the spokes. So, I think that hand "feel" is meaningless on the road.
The Protons do not have a grease port. I know many don't like grease ports, but in the PNW, it would not be a bad idea for use in the winter, rainy conditions. I just make sure I frequently overhaul the hubs. I trashed a set of Record hubs once during an Oregon winter. Ouch!
Again, I think the biggest advantage of the Proton/Neutron is the offset spoke design of the rear wheel.
BTW, I've heard the same sentiment from my local wheelsmiths that you reported. I guess that colors my judgement as well.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Hey skagway,
I've been meaning to ask you about your thoughts on the Sachs. I know its a lovingly made work of art but how would you compare it to other fine steel?
Still love the Calfee? I do like Orange bikes and your pearl orange looks sharp.
Which do you find yourself riding more often?
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Skagwayroadie,
Thanks for your unbiased posting about the wheelset issue, i'm sure all of your points are well noted by many people, myself included. In my postings i made some of my findings with nearly 20 years of wheelbuilding experience available to people in this forum, and these were from my personal experience with the products i bought or ones from riders that i know personally used, not just purely here say.
If you have read the book by Jobst Brandt about The bicycle Wheel, there are solid reasons stated for and against building certain designs of wheelsets. A lot of the issues dealt with in the book are concerned with reliability and durability over super light weight 'gimmick' wheel designs, and this means that the end result built wheelset is more traditional looking. Unfortunately this also makes the wheels look too normal for a lot of the riders out there that want something looking different.
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Its time to ride.
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