dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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I am looking to buy a new Calfee. I have been able to ride a Tetra but have not been able to find a Dragonfly. Cost aside, what do others think that have ridden both models ? Is the Dragonfly really worth the .5 lb weigth reduction ?
Does the Dragonfly descend as well as the Tetra ?
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Max
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 69
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If you do not weigh an ounce of 120 lbs, then you might notice the half pound. I didn't notice any difference in descending. If don't care about repair ability, then get a D' Fly (Craig Calfee said they are hard to repair, and he said the Tetra was the most repairable).
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MAX
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Rebecca_Smith
new member
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 21
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I have both a Tetra-Pro and a Dragonfly. The T-pro is set up with an Ultrega double and the Dfly a Dura-Ace Triple. Both have the same saddle type and wheel set. So, they’re pretty much the same – which makes for an ideal test bed.
All and all I much prefer riding the Dfly! Without throwing all sorts of engineering terms, that are all subjective anyway, let’s just say it feels mo’ betta’. That’s not to say the T-pro doesn’t feel mo’ betta’ also it’s just that the Dfly feels mo’ mo’ betta’.
I think if you can afford the Dfly you won’t be at all sorry. If you can afford the Dfly and go with the T-pro you’ll be left, for the rest of your life, wonder if you shouldn’t have gotten a Dfly. So, for life long peace of mind go ahead and splurge – you won’t be at all sorry. If you are, I’ll take the frame off your hands, minus depreciation, wear, shipping and any thing else I can think of if it's a 54.
Seriously both are superior bikes and you won’t be sorry with either one. However, if you can, go ahead and get the Dfly.
B.
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dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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Thanks for the feedback.
Sounds like I won't go wrong with either frame but the Dfly sounds nicer, or as you say mo' better. Sorry, I ride a 58. I know I would be able to sell it if didn't like it, but I can't imagine I not loving the ride.
Do others agree ?
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Max
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 69
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Rebecca,
How do you like you triple. I have never use a triple before, and am concern I won't like it.
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MAX
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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This was my response under Going Triple.
Rebecca said it well. I have a triple on my Calfee and my Kestrel and I have never regretted it a minute. I live on the edge of the Allegheny Mountains and I tour on my bikes. It is what is practical for a 56 year old who is 210 with a bad knee. Can I ride a double? Sure and just like Rebecca you pay for it eventually. I have ridden all my local rides on both a double and a triple. The difference is how you feel at the end of the day. This is especially important when you are doing tours. All you are doing is giving yourself more gear ratios.
Fred Matheny wrote an article about 2 years ago about the average rider kidding themselves when they are riding a 39 x 25 to climb. He made the point that that is what Lance ususally uses. If Lance is in that ratio to spin up a steep hill how could the average weekend warrior use it? It went on about ratios and so forth and he proved that many people should really have a triple to ride the best and most efficient way.
This is a little bit about Fred. It leaves out he did Paris-Brest-Paris this year for the second time.
During his 20-plus years in cycling, Fred has written hundreds of fitness & training articles for top bike magazines and websites. A dozen books, too, including the landmark Fred Matheny's Complete Book of Road Bike Training published in late 2002.
On the bike, he's raced to medals in state and national championships, plus a senior world record in the Team Race Across America.
As a coach, Fred has worked with hundreds of riders at PAC Tour Endurance Training Camps, the Carpenter/Phinney Bike Camps, and Dirt Camp.
So as you can see Fred knows what he is talking about.
My cassette is a 27. Again I never regret that. I don't always use all those gears but if I hit a particularly long or steep climb (or both) I am happy it is there. Sometimes I look for another one even. We have some really steep hills in Pittsburgh. If I were you I would get the largest cassette made. Then you pick the best climbing gear for you for that hill for that day. Campy cassettes are really expensive so why not know that you will never need another cassette? You will have every possible ratio you can have. I know when you hit a 12% or higher climb you'll be happy for an extra "click." They wouldn't make them if people did not want and buy them. Don't let the "roadie" mentatlity about triples influence your choice of cassettes. Go for broke...
Enjoy our bike and don't worry about the hammerheads. There are a lot of wannabees in that crowd.
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Max
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 69
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Lon,
Thanks.
I did it! I got it, a Campy Chorus Triple. And just now I did my hill up to my house twice. My first impressions, I am going to love it!
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MAX
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Great! I'm happy to hear it! Wait until you do 5 days in a row. Others will be done in and you will be ready for another week. I've seen it myself on many trips.
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mb2k
new member
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 23
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Go Dragonfly! You can't go wrong with either bike! Rebecca's right...if you're thinking about both and you go with the Tetra...you'll always wonder. If your concerned about riding into a wall or car and you care about ability to repair the frame...go with a Tetra. Personally, if I damage a frame bad enough to need repairs...I'm going to seriously consider a replacement frame!
One last plus...the new Dragonfly sculpted lugs look great!
Enjoy your new bike!
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Jeff_Nichols
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 73
Loc: San Jose
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I have owned a Tetra Pro for two years now. I don't own a Dragonfly but was considering one when I purchased my Tetra Pro (the wait list was forming - not yet available though). In the end the significant extra cost made me choose the Tetra. I haven't wished I had bought the DFly once since then - and I do have the type of personality that, when I "compromise", is always wondering "what if".
In all honesty, there have been more than a few moments when I thought that I could have been just as happy with a Luna. Now, I don't doubt that for some/all the ride of a DFly is nicer than the Tetra. I'm just sharing my experience. What really gets me is that my Tetra is a great riding, beautiful bike and the .5 pound I would have saved with the DFly would make no practical difference in my rides or races. Going through a couple years of training/racing taught me that my training, diet and sleep routines have an infinitely larger impact on how fast I am - thus the thought that I would have been just as happy on a Luna as all three are apparently similar in ride (the Luna and Tetra moresoe I've heard) and great bicycles.
Can't go wrong either way though.
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dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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Thanks for all the feedback.
I may end up with the Tetra in spite of all the good Dfly comments. My LBS is going to give me a killer deal on a Tetra floor model that is 2 or 3 years old. It will be hard to justify spending the big bucks for the Dragonfly when the Tetra is such a great bike. Besides I have not been able to test ride a Dfly, it would be hard to buy a bike without a test ride. Finally, losing 5 lbs will be cheaper.
I appreciate all the great comments.
Dave
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Wow you should have said about the awesome deal to begin with. They are next to impossible to find on a Calfee. You are lucky. If my son wasn't in college I'd be asking you if he had a 54 in a similar deal. That would be very hard to pass up unless you are Bill Gates or such.
Enjoy. I know you will. 
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Bruce
contributor
Reged: 12/27/03
Posts: 133
Loc: North of NYC
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I think the choice of Tetra vs DFly is one of personality. If you can be content with your decision, then go with the Tetra. If you are one that thinks, well, what if I got the..., then the DFly has your name on it. Rebbecca is probably the most knowledgeable about the differences between the bikes. I rode a Tetra only once. It is an awesome bike. So is my DFly. I no longer have any bike envy or doubts about the bike. Be warned though, if you get the DFly and can't keep up, no blaming the bike, it's all on you!
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Let's not forget that the Tetra Pro is a work of art. IMO the Dragon Fly is a bit of a tool for the job. Yes, the sculpted lugs look better but nowhere near the beauty of the seamless TP's. And tubing....battleship grey vs CF weave. The TP is better looking and this makes you go faster. Not to mention everyone else is slowing down looking at your bike.
Edited by vaxn8r (02/05/04 07:39 AM)
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dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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I pulled the trigger last night and bought the Tetra pro.The deal the LBS offered me on the floor model the other day was just too good to pass up. I hope with carbon bars,stem,seatpost,FSA carbon compact crank, speedplay Ti pedals and DA 10 speed I'll have bike under 16 lbs. I really look forward to getting it built up. My only excuse will be the lousy motor. The bike will always be way better than my legs.
Dave
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Congratulations. You will love your Calfee.
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dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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Thanks Lon
Dave
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speedsac
new member
Reged: 12/29/03
Posts: 4
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Hello
I own a D'Fly and have ridden a Tetra. My Wife owns a Tetra and I have traded bikes with her on rides so I could compare the two frames. We both use same pedals, wheels and tires.
I think the D'Fly descends very well,givin good wheels, tires and brakes, the rider is the only limiting factor. I got my D'Fly up near 60 miles and hour coming down Copper Mountain near Vail Colorado, best high speed decent you could ever dream of!
There is no comparison going up hill, the D'Fly is faster feeling and of course faster because it is lighter in weight by no small margin. The only thing a Tetra does better is in smoothness and shock absorbing, but if you use smooth wheels and tires this differences becomes very small. An example of very smooth wheels would be Topolino's with michelin race pro tires. Once the wheel, tire combo is real smooth and shock absorbimg the difference in frames regarding smoothness and shock absorbing is nil.
So with the right wheels, tires and of course the miracle saddle the carbon railed Fizik Aliante the D'Fly really shines at its best.
I have ridden sense 1971 and have been a cat one racer. Rode the Furnace Creek 508 last year.
Regards
Robert
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Speedsac,
I have to chime in here. It's cool that you've ridden so many exquisite Calfees. But the difference between the TP and the DF is 0.5 lbs. There is just no way that you can "feel" that kind of difference on the bike. That translates into about 0.25% more rider/bike weight. You're talking maybe a second on a 1,000 ft climb. And let's not forget those DF lugs are not aero so that's gonna slow you down a tad compared to a smooth TP;-)
The bikes have the same geometry so they should descend the same assuming same fork and wheels. BTW, I wonder if the Tetra and DF you tried have exactly the same frame size and stem length and bar height. If not, much of what you said can be accounted for right there.
I don't doubt at all they feel different but I don't quite buy that there is a measurable performance difference...it would be near impossible to prove it anyway. With all due respect as I've never ridden the Fly.
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Jeff_Nichols
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 73
Loc: San Jose
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Given my disclaimer that I have not owned a DFly either, I'd have to generally agree with vaxn8r. .5 pounds may "feel" lighter but on paper it's not much of a difference. That said, I personally put a lot of weight behind the power of the mind when it comes to riding. If one bike that is .5 pounds lighter than another "feels" faster and gives you a mental edge, that may be enough to give you the mental strength to push your legs that much harder on a long climb - and that could very well make a noticable difference.
I'd also have to agree with previous posters that if you think you're going to be left wondering "what if", just go for the DFly - they're amazing bikes from what I've heard.
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cycletom
new member
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 8
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0.5 lbs?? That is slightly more than 1/4 of a 28 oz. water bottle. On your next ride try filling one bottle only 3/4 and see if you can tell the difference in weight.
I have to ditto the vaxn8r post as to weight.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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First off I am convinced that Davdon made the right choice. I think if he had asked Craig the choice would have been the Tetra at the great price. I talked with him when I got my bike and he suggested the Luna based on my needs and riding style. At the time Craig rode a Luna. I was happy when he said that since I liked the lugged look more. I have a Kestrel so a Luna looks very different for it. He said the ride was the same and everyone who has been on both agree. Davdon definitely made the right choice. A Tetra at a great price is a super value. Money is finite. For some we reach the finite status more quickly. If money is an issue at all and you have a great deal then the Tetra was the best choice. Let's face it the D'Fly is not cheap by any means. You can upgrade a lot of parts for the difference in cost. If money is absolutely no concern (and isn't with me) then go for broke which in my case would be a literal statement.
Can you feel .5 pounds? That is hard to say I think. If a half of a pound made no difference at all Lance and others would not have climbing bikes. Lance has said he "saves" his lighter bike for the mountains because of a mental edge knowing you have the lighter machine.
Can the average weekend warrior feel the difference? That I think is harder. I use the smaller size water bottle. They weigh 1 pound when filled. I don't feel faster once I killed off my first bottle and that is a pound.
I however believe Rebecca and others when they say the D'Fly has a different "feel." It should as it is not made of the same exact material. Don't forget it has the boron added. They say scandium does not feel the same or ride the same as aluminum even though it is is just aluminum with added ingredients. It stands to reason that carbon fiber with boron added would have a different feel to the ride.
Back to the .5 pounds. Even Lance agrees to the power of the mind. For the exceptional rider it could mean a difference but it would not be a huge one in time. My Kestrel is a little heavier than my Calfee. My Kestrel is slower on average speed. Without going into details it really is and was set up exactly the same. I noticed it just by chance. However I don't think the weight is the issue I think it is the Calfee is a more responsive and more lively frame. Hence I ride faster.
Well that is a lot words not saying a whole lot. I hope I did not bore anyone.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Lon,
again I'll admit not riding a DFly, but in my conversations with Craig, he told me he builds all 3 road Calfees to ride the same. He did say that some feel the DFly has a more metallic "feel" to it but the 3 bikes were tuned to ride the same. So if that is true then any difference would have to be in subjective feel, 1/2 lb of weight, fork choice, component/wheel choices or geometry differences.
I agree that if you feel faster you probably are faster. Anyone who ever bought a new bike knows that is true. I would also guess the more spent on the bike the more true it becomes.
OTOH, I've heard some claim they are faster on their quadruple butted new steel bike then they were on their 3 year old triple butted steel bike that weighs a mere 3 ounces more. I also hear people claim to be 1.5 mph faster average speed on one set wheels 100g lighter (claimed weight) than another set. Who knows? Whatever makes you go faster I guess.
Edited by vaxn8r (02/10/04 03:53 AM)
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Max
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 69
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Congratulations! Smart choice. You'll love it. What color is it?
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MAX
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Van, (it is easier than the whole name)
I agree if Craig says the ride is the same it is. What I meant was what Craig said...a little different feel to it. That would make sense since the material is a little different. It would have to react in a somewhat different fashion. Again like scandium and aluminum.
Bottom line I think he made the right choice unless money was absolutely no object. Then who cares about the total outlay? Not many of us are in that position.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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A post script on "feel."
I really think some people can tell minor differences more than others. Why I have no idea.
My wheels have Chris King hubs. The bearings are users adjustable with two 5mm allens. I trick is to get them just tight enough. Eventually sometimes the rear will bearing become loose. Believe it or not I can feel that. I don't believe it to tell you the truth but I'll be climbing a hill and something just doesn't feel right.
Feel is so subjective and I think we all differ.
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dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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The bike is a Ferrari Red with fade to nude around the top of the seat tube and bottom bracket.
My LBS is ordering the components :
DA 10sp with FSA "Tyler" carbon crank
Isis TI bottom bracket
FSA K-Lite bars and stem
Rolf Elan wheels
FSA K-lite seatpost and Terry Fly seat
Not sure about tires or cages yet but the bike will end up around 15 lbs.
I'm stoked to get it complete and start riding.
Dave
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Sounds absolutely awesome!
When looking for a cassette see if you can get an 11. It will give you about the same top end using the Compact Crank. It may not be as much of a factor for you however. Around here with our hills it is nice to have a high top end gearing.
Good luck and enjoy!
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Hmmmm....
I just saw I brand new set of Rolf Elan Wheels today....
Didn't weight very much....I'm guessing around 1270 g or so.
Sounds fast just sitting there.
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Max
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 69
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That's going to be a beautiful bike. When are you going to get it?
I got my Tetra Pro last Tuesday, so it's a 135 miles old now. It's a Red Fade to a Cabernet Red Clear Coat with only the head tube decal. So people have nothing to focus on, but a beautiful paint scheme.
Components:
Campy Chorus 10 Spd with a Triple Crank 53/42/30 (the finely space gearing was important for maintaining a constant in my cadence).
13-26 Cluster (I do spin out of the 13 faster than the 12, but have not notice any big difference in my down hill speeds).
Ergo Brain Computer (I love the cadence feature, it really helps stay dial into the best gear all the time).
Fiziik Aliante Seat (I am not sure if it's the right one for me, yet)
Speedplay Pedals
32 spoke Mavic Open Pro handmade with Chorus Hubs (for reparability and reliability)
Easton EC70 Seatpost
Chris King Headset
Custom Calfee Ergo Bar/Stem Setup (don't have this, yet. In process of finding the optimum position)
Congratulations again. These are just beautiful bikes.
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MAX
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dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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Max- Your bike sounds beautiful.
My LBS sells campy but said to go with Shimano as they have had problems with parts availability.Has anybody else been told this ?
My frame is sitting in the shop as it was a floor model and I'm just waiting for all the components to arrive. I am pretty anxious to get the bike and ride.I just need dry weather,otherwise I ride my rain bike.
I am going to use a 12-27 cassette. The 27 will give me a bail out gear to climb the hills and mountains here in Oregon. I probably won't need an 11 cog as I am pretty conservative on descents. I have had two friends die and one friend with a serious closed head injury on descents in the mountains. They were all experienced riders and they all were wearing helmets. Ouch.
I will never be able to push an 11 on the flats as I don't have the legs or lungs.
Happy riding !
Dave
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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You are right Max's bike sounds gorgeous.
I ride Shimano. Campy folks tend to be very loyal and feel theirs in best. IMHO they both work well and both have their advantages and disadvantages.
If you dealer does not do a lot of Campy he could have more problems with parts. When I bought my Calfee I was in a similar situation in that the store did little if any Campy. We could not even get answers to questions. Yet I know the people on here have dealers that do a great deal of Campy and have no issues.
Plus he is used to working on Shimano. That was probably a factor in his answer. Lastly I believe Campy does require some special tools.
On a mountain descent an 11 is useless. A 12 is great. Around here in the city we have some good "pedaling" down hills and it is fun to have a little more high end. Out on the road when I get in our mountains it really makes no difference at all. The key in my opinion is the larger cog. It sure can be nice to have.
Good luck and enjoy! 
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Jeff_Nichols
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 73
Loc: San Jose
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I have campy on my tetra and though I'm very pleased, I think that both shimano and campy are functionally very similar. I maintain my wife's road bike which has ultegra. There are issues of ergonomics (personal preference), rebuildability (if you care about that), and of course the issue you folks have mentioned: the expertise of your local shop. If your shop of choice doesn't "do" campy and you can't/won't find one that does, that's a good reason to skip campy. I think it's not the greatest sign that a shop doesn't work on campy but that's just me. I think there are just as many fanatic shimano fans as there are campy fans :-) Shimano also requires special tools but maybe not as many as campy. One part that requires two specific tools is the DA10 crank (which you're not getting).
If your low gear is going to be a 34x27 then you'll be pretty well equipped for the hills. That gear is just a hair higher than a 30x25 that you'd get with a triple and a 12-25 for example. Sounds like an awesome bike!
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Max
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 69
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Dave,
Thanks for the compliment on my bike.
As for components I have always selected them base upon with what I thought had the best features and value. I started cycling 20 years ago with Campy-Super Record, then changed 10 years ago to Shimano-Dura Ace, and now I am riding Campy Chorus. I preferred the way Campy will allow to down shift multiple rear sprockets with one movement of the lever, this is especially convenient when changing from the small to large chains in maintaining proper cadence between shifts. I always test ride the equipment for before I decide to buy it, no matter what I have heard or been told, that's the way I decide.
My gearing needs have changed over the years to accommodate starting with 40K races to currently doing 200 mile races. I began with a 42-52 / 13-19, then 10 years later changed 39-53 / 12-23, and now 30-42-53 / 13-26. I may not know much about cycling, but I have learned through the years the finer adjustments you can make in your gearing to maintain given force on your pedals can help a rider be more efficient. That's why the pro's have push bike makers from 6 rear sprockets to 10 in the time I have been cycling, and now some of the pros are using triples, which was unheard 4 or 5 years ago. This year I will be facing some tough courses in the California Triple Crown - Stage Race, but I feel I have the best equipment for the task. This is my first full week with my new Tetra, and I don't ever remember feeling this good after a week of riding (the odometer just turn 255).
I hope all of our comments have helped you, and I hope your parts come in soon. How's the weather up there?
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MAX
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skibyak
new member
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 1
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I live in Oregon too and I just put together my dream ride last fall-tetra w/Record, topolino etc. I just don't get how someone could own this nice a bike and not ride it regardless of the weather. If the weather sucks at least I'm riding my good bike. Wear and tear-yeah, but its all replacable stuff that cost a fraction of the total cost. I'm using the good stuff and mother nature can't back me down.
Use your best tools and maintain them with love.
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dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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Max-
I agree that having lots of gear options makes you much more efficient on your bike. My rain bike has triple Ultegra and I do like all the gear combinations. I decided to go with the compact crank since DA does not yet come with a triple and I wanted a really light bike . I don't race like you but ride 100-200 miles per week for fun.I may have to trade out for triple gearing later to help save my knee but the 34-27 should be low enough.
We average 50 inches of rain a year here and the weather has been about average,so plenty of rain but plenty of good days also. Had a beautiful ride with real sunshine on my 30 mile "long cut" home from work yesterday.
I was a little surpised at the post of the person who rides their Tetra in the rain. Almost everyone I ride with here has a full fendered rain bike and a nicer good weather bike.
My rain bike is completely trashed over a season in spite of care and maintenance. All the grit just wears out the chain,cassette,bottom bracket ,hubs etc.even though I clean the bike when I arrive home. My new rain bike will be my Litespeed Catalyst when I get fenders on it.I won't be able to trash the Tetra just yet.
The feed back from this forum has been great.Lots of smart, experienced riders out there.
Dave
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