cycletom
new member
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 8
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I am looking at buying a Luna frame, but am looking for good light, aerodynamic wheels tough enough to use as everyday. Many people I know use Kryseriums. But, I have stumbled across the American Classics as a possible lighter, more easily maintainable alternative (they use easily available spokes, and regular spoke wrenches for example). Specifically, Am. Classic 420s, with bladed spokes. Does anyone out there have any experience with them?
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dfcas
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 143
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I have a set 20 front 24 rear 420's that I got a great deal on from a builder.I ride them daily as I don't race.They are as light as claimed and seem fine.I like them a lot more than I expected to,but I don't think I would pay $700 tho,just because I've trashed quite a few wheels on potholes.
Dan
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no signature
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mkg
new member
Reged: 01/14/04
Posts: 17
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cycletom,
I just purchased a set of 420's (standard build) this morning to go on my Luna. FYI I am at 168 lbs and plan on using them as a daily set of wheels. I was deciding between the Zipp 303's (just a bit to expensive), the Kryseriums (bad luck with a pair before) and the American Classic. What sold me was the standard spokes and tools as you mentioned and their weight. Northern California weather permitting I will put several hours on them this weekend. I'll post something Sunday afternoon.
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cycletom
new member
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 8
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mkg,
I look forward to hearing about your experience with them!
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foothillbiker
friend
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 25
Loc: Los Altos, CA
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All,
fwiw, I had been using a pair of 350's (28H, campy hubs, 3x) for the last 10 months (10,000 miles). Last weekend the rear rim gave up the ghost -- fairly severe cracks around a couple of the spoke holes. This failure was sudden, but not the result of any catestrophic event (e.g. pot hole).
I weight about 145# soaking wet.
Frankly, I'm pretty disappointed as I expect a hell of a lot more than 10K miles out of a wheel.
I'm going to give some eyeletted rims a try now -- specifically the sun ringle MA14E's (non-anondized).
REgards,
Chas.
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REgards,
Chas.
2002 Tetra Pro
2004 Richard Sachs
2000 Steve Rex
2004 Surly Pacer
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PsyDoc
friend
Reged: 01/14/04
Posts: 37
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...that disappointed. You got 10,000 miles out of a wheelset that is probably more in the "race day only" category than the "everyday training wheel" category. There have been a couple of stories I have heard regarding rim failures of the AC350 wheelset.
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mkg
new member
Reged: 01/14/04
Posts: 17
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cycletom,
I got 8 hours on the new 420's (standard build) this weekend; very impressed. My "baseline" includes the Campy Neutrons, Mavic Ksyriums and Rolf Vector Pro's. The 420's roll very well. Not sure if this has to do with the aerodynamics, lighter weight or both. In any event they just feel faster than the others. Climbing felt good too. I got in two long climbs to test my fear of light = "soft" wheels; nothing noticed. I will post something again in a few weeks after getting some mileage on them and consider durability.
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Jas0n
journeyman
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 62
Loc: Westchester, New York
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i rode the ksyrium sl's all of last season and honestly, was not very impressed. there are a very stiff wheel, but aside from that, they lack any qualities which justify thier price. they are not lightweight by any means. they are expensive to fix if a spoke breaks or you crash them; though i have never seen a broken spoke on any pair of ksyriums. i will hopefully be riding am classic 350's this years, laced with sapim cx ray spokes. they should not only be lighter (~300+ g) but also reliable and reasonably stiff. the 420's are great wheels from what i have heard from other riders; aero and light, the best of both worlds. they also have a reputation for reliability and lack of truining.
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eat to live, live to ride
if it ain't rainin, it ain't trainin
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Rippin
friend
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 30
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I have the Sprint 350s - quite light, decent price, standard build 28/32 (175 lbs limit). I weigh 145 lbs and after two rides I had to true the front wheel 
Maybe because it's brand new...but I hope it doesn't go out of true often from here on.
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cole
new member
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 5
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No one should be using the AC 350 wheels (built by AC) for everyday use. They are fragile. I have set of the AC 350 32 hole rims built on Hugi 240 hubs. They were built by Joe Young who has been a Master Wheelbuilder for 35 years. He said they are difficult to build and that the rims are almost too light. I have never heard him say that about any wheel and I have known him for many years.
He built this set for me over a year ago when you could still buy the rims individually. I would like another set of these rims but according to the AC website they are no longer available for sale individually. You can only buy the pre-built sets. If I ever build another set of the 350's I will just buy the pre-builts, dismantle them, send the rims to Joe and then sell the hubs. I weigh 160 lbs year round and as part of a durability test I decided to try and ride them in some bad road conditions and get them out of true. I raced one road season on them and one cyclocross season on them. I finally had to true one spoke on the rear wheel in December right before the TX state cross championships. I also train full time on a set he built me 1 1/2 years ago. I abuse them on a regular basis by jumping off curbs and traversing down some of the rocky dirt roads around here. I trued two spokes on the rear wheel about 4 months ago. Well built wheels will rarely have to be touched with a spoke wrench. I dont think the pre-built set from AC would have held up that well. Only wheels from Joe for me.
P.S. The Mavic Kysirium rims crack as well as the Sun rims mentioned in one of these posts. If you have a set just watch them closely.
Cole
2002 Tetra Pro
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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I'm a 6'2" / 210 lb road racer with 29" thighs, and have never had a set of wheels last me more than 5 months - except my pair of American Classic 350 Deep-Vs. They are 28/32 and factory-built. I've blown apart Rolf Vector Pros, HED 3 (carbon tri-spoke), Spinergy Xaero and XaeroLites, and Ksyriums. The Deep-Vs aren't particularly aero nor stinko light, but they roll smoothly, are torsionally stiff, can be serviced anywhere, and are bomb-proof.
For a lighter wheel that's more durable than most, try Topolinos. Although I did turf my Topos eventually, they are ridiculously light, have terrific hubs, stay remarkably true under mondo punishment, have a very cushy ride due to the soft spokes, and the guys at Topolino are great about tech support. When I finally sproinged my front Topolino, I sent my pair back to Topo for a rebuild with different nipples and higher spoke tensions. I recently got them back, took them out for a ride, and went "aaaaahhhhhhhhhh". They are the best-riding wheel I've tried, and I've tried almost everything, because my team gets lots of demo wheels.
Topos really are a unique and remarkable wheel, take it from a gorilla wheel mangler who can break anything. I have taco-ed titanium cassettes, I break a chain about once a month, I have torn through steel frame tubes from sprinting, and the driveway to my house is a 21-degree incline, so just riding home is an acid test for drive train components.
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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The reactions of Topo owners of which there are several around here has all been positive. However on occasion the rear hub has been mentioned. It is usually in the context of it getting loose or not being able to get it adjusted properly after that.
Your post praises the hubs and your torture machine would seem to be a perfect test. Have you had such problems? Do you wrench your own bike? You said you were on a team that gets many demo wheels so I thought a team mechanic could have dealt with it. (Everyone who has Topos raves about their ride.)
I'm just curious. At the moment with my son in a very expensive college high end wheels are not even under the table much less on it. I was hoping that any early hub problems they had are now a thing of the past. (As I recall those posts were all people who bought them early on.)
Last question, do you think they might make an "extra stiff" wheel for those of us in higher weight groups? He did it when he was working with the Rev X. It seems like that is what they did for you.
Happy riding. 
Happy riding.
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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One of my teammates had that rear hub problem you mentioned with his set of Topos. Rear hub was a bit wobbly and couldn't be adjusted right from the time he took it out of the box, and this particular rider is the best wrench around. He weighs 145, so it must have been pretty pronounced. Rear wheel to go back for replacement, so I presume it was a manufacturing defect, not an adjustability issue. As for my pair, the rear hub has been perfect.
The way I look at it, trick wheels are problematic, period. So you have two choices. (1) You can go with a not-so-light, not-so-aero, but smooth and totally bomb-proof wheel like the A.C. Deep-V and never have to walk home. (2) You can go with a stinko-light, superb-riding wheel, and realize you'll have occasional problems - so you've got to go with a company and a dealer whom you can call and get a helpful answer, reasonably-priced service, & spare parts. You've got to be realistic.
Or, finally, you can choose Spinergy and know you're getting a wheel that is guaranteed to fall apart, and when you call them, they either won't return your call, or on the rare occasion when you can get a human on the phone, they'll tell you to @&^% off.
I don't know of any clydesdale model of Topolino, but I did ask them to increase the spoke tension on my Topos when they rebuilt 'em. On my first ride upon getting them back, I first got run off the road onto the dirt going downhill at 40 mph by a senile old farmer who pulled his tugboat across both lanes and stopped, then about two hours later on another fast downhill, a guy in a Turbo Mini cleaned off his mirror on my elbow and I hit a big rock hard enough to blow out my front tire. They stayed perfectly true and round.
I think ZIPP has a great concept with their "Clydesdale" wheel. It's intentionally a little heavier for beefers like myself. American Classic has a similar idea, in that most of their wheels are available with higher spoke counts. With most AC models, you can go light if you're prepared to bear the consequences of pushing the weight envelope, or you can go conservative and not spew wheel parts all over the road.
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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Kerowagi
new member
Reged: 12/23/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Central Texas
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Cole, I totally aggree with you about Joe Young. Since finding him I also only ride Joe's wheels. I had him put some Mavic CXP33 rims on my Camy Record10 hubs a couple years ago and he told me how he doesn't like the Campy (or Shimano) rear hub design because of the angle the spokes come off the hub. Sure enough, last week, 10 miles into a 50 miler, I heard the sound of metal hitting the pavement when a chunk of flange broke off my rear hub, freeing up two spokes. Being totally at one with my bike, I didn't notice until before my next ride when I went to adjust my rear derallieur. So I can't claim to be an expert on ride quality, but Joe's wheels do stay true even with the cattleguard infested roads around Fredericksburg. I've got him building another CXP33 rim on a Hugi 240 hub.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Does Joe Young use Chris King also?
Mister Skunk thanks for the reply. Maybe their early version had some hub problems because that is exactly what I remember reading.
Your assessment of wheels is right on. I went the little heavier but dependable route after some problems. I also became honest with myself that a little less weight would not help me all that much. I'm slow no matter what and I really don't worry about it.
Take care.
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Kerowagi
new member
Reged: 12/23/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Central Texas
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Joe will build it with whatever you like even though his web site lists only what I believe are his favorites. I couldn't use Chris King because I have Campy. Joe's site is http://www.youngwheels.com/.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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On your recommendation, I checked out the Joe Young web site. Even if one doesn't need a wheelset, I think it is worth a visit just to read his philosophy. Much like the philosophy extolled on the Chris King website, Joe provides a rare and much-needed dose of function over form. His views on fashion-model wheelsets are very similar to Chris King's opinions on integrated headsets.
Disclaimer: After having owned a Litespeed Vortex with an integrated headset, I recently paid extra for a custom Litespeed Vortex with a conventional headset!
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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foothillbiker
friend
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 25
Loc: Los Altos, CA
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Cole,
Just fyi the rear AC-350 (28H/campy record hub) that whose failure I mentioned a bit earlier in this thread was, in fact, built by Joe Young.
I'm not saying that's any reflection on him, but I want to point out that it was *NOT* the 350 wheelset that AC sells.
Also, if you're looking for AC-350 rims ONLY you might try www.oddsandendos.com as he has a lot of weird stuff -- that's where I got my rims originally about a year ago when AC had none.
REgards,
Chas.
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cole
new member
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 5
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foothill,
Hate to hear about the wheel going out on you. The rim sounds like it may have been bad. Sounds like a rare case. I have several friends (light and very heavy) that use his wheels around here and havent had a problem but they dont use the AC hubs either. I have never been a fan of the AC hubs and esp the front Micro hub. Its light but everyone I know that had one it always developed a lot of play in them and you could move the wheel back and forth while it is on the bike. My girlfriend got talked into buying a set of the pre-built wheels from AC a couple of yrs ago and was always taking them to her local shop because they wouldnt stay true. She weighs 105 lbs and ride on good roads. I did have one of his wheels start cracking on me years ago but it was the Sun rim and had nothing to do with the construction of the wheel. He did say the AC 350 rims were hard to build and I dont even use the Campy hubs any longer. I sold all four sets of my Campy wheels and only use Hugi hubs now. I havent heard of any failures from Joe since he started using the Hugi hubs.
I will be testing my 350's again on some of those cattle guards around Fredburg on Easter weekend. I will try and report back.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I'm far from an expert on AC but I know there were changes. The founder was out of the business and that was when things were going to pot. He has returned and it has been since then that they are becoming a force to be reckoned with. He is the driving force behind the new product and US production. (He is now in Florida.) I believe this may be explained to some degree at the web site. They need to be judged on the present and not the past.
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Siriusguy
new member
Reged: 03/28/04
Posts: 11
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If and when I can buy custom wheels, I'd sure consider long and hard going with Mr. Young, whose suggestions by E-mail for me based upon my weight, riding style, etc., sounded very forthright, and with an emphasis upon durability for a 100 kg rider like myself.
The only reason why I might not consider going ahead at the moment would be the realization that as I now ride Shimano, but would likely go with Campy Chorus on a new bike, there's a difference in the hub design that would likely preclude me from getting the 13-29 Campy casette that my gravity challenged body needs for our local foothills, if I were to use the custom wheels on the new bike.
Regardless, anyone considering new wheels certainly should consider a consultation with someone like Mr. Young.
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cole
new member
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 5
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Good idea to consult Joe. He is all about durability before light weight. He built a set of wheels for my friend who weighs well over 200 lbs. He could not ride any set of wheels without having problems. He is now a happy customer.
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[Re: 
Mr. Skunk
Joe Young & The Mighty Skunk