charlesf
new member
Reged: 03/18/04
Posts: 13
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Hi,
I've been considering a Calfee as a first 'serious' road bike, but I've also seen frequent mentions of Parlee bikes on this list. I was just curious about the difference in ride between the two brands - if generalizations can be made. The Parlees retail for $2500, without fork, a bit steep (but perhaps worth it?), putting it a little above a Tetra. I don't intend to race, but use the new bike for training and fitness purposes. Perhaps I'm misguided, but I did want to purchase one bike to last for a long time, rather than promise myself that I'll replace one model every few years for another. Essentially this is why I'd consider spending a lot now. I had set a $3K ceiling for myself, but I realize a Parlee would exceed this.
Thanks.
Charles
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bfd
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 77
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At $2500 for the frame, I would consider a Parlee to be the equivalent of either a tetra custom or maybe *cheaper* d'fly (since I think the Parlee is "lighter" than the tetra). Having said that, there's a couple of things that you probably should consider:
1. which one turns you on when you look at it? The one that gets you on the bike and out the door is the one to get. Alot of people don't like the webbing/gussets of a Calfee. That's cool, get a Parlee (or colnago, look, kestrel, aegis or even a trek).
2. Of course, you're talking about bikes, so which one fits you the best? At this price, both can be bought as custom. If that's the case, make sure you know what you want (e.g., custom geometry) or have a good shop fit you. Custom fitting is only as good as what you actually fit.
3. warranty. Calfee has a 25 year warranty; Parlee is what? lifetime? Both are good. You don't say where you live, but if you're on the east coast, where parlee is located, that might be a better thing.
For example, I live in SF, an hour or so away from Calfee. Any problems, I'm there at the factory and its taken care of (I have an older Carbonframes tetra custom and when my ti shifter band came loose, it was easily replaced, and the rest of the bike *upgraded*, all under warranty)
4. ride. If you're gonna spend the big bucks, try riding both. That is arguably the best way to know which one you like. If that's not possible, maybe someone here has both, or at least has ridden both and can tell you what, if any, difference there are. I know there use to be a former semi-pro racer named Ryan Sabada (sp?) who use own both and really, really preferred his Parlee because it was stiffer.
Good Luck!
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charlesf
new member
Reged: 03/18/04
Posts: 13
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BFD,
Thanks for the analysis. I'm hemming and hawing between going for a modest road bike ($1000 range), or pulling out all the stops. I could certainly go for a 'tweener (a complete bike in the $2000 range, or a custom frame in the $1500 range), but if I'm searching for that one special bike that will, hopefully, last quite a while, I'm nudged away from the cheaper bike.
The Parlees are only custom at the upper end ($3600); the $2500 specimens are standard frames. Calfee's a bit better: $1400 for a Luna (non-custom only), and their low-end custom fram, the Tetra, is $2500. The cheaper custom bikes (from Seven Cycles and Hampsten, for instance)are steel and run about $1500. Being a novice, I don't know if my backside can really tell the difference among finely-made Steel, Titanium, and Carbon bikes. Also, if I do mail-order, I'm taking a leap of faith -- most of the bikes I'm looking at aren't available to test, or, if they are, there's little guarantee that I can find a demo in my size (I'd think retailers only stock one or two examples of a particular bike for demo purposes).
Another important consideration for such an expensive investment is 'fixability'. If I wipe-out on a $4K carbon bike, will a cracked or split tube be repairable? According to Calfee's White Paper, Steel is best here (Ti and Carbon can be problems). I live in New York City, which is naturally hectic, and accidents will happen.
Charles
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Kevan
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 70
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Finally a posting you can sink your keys into!
Charles, the age old problem: being new to this should I buy big or small-time, is what you're asking.
Well, first off... being here posting these questions, you've got a couple things going for you. One, you have great taste. The Calfees are terrific bikes. Second, you are pondering on concerns even a seasoned rider considers. A little bit of your riding history would help us help you, but more importantly, you should be talking to a reliable fitter who might answer some or all of your questions directly.
Here's my gut feeling based on what you've written so far:
- don't go out and blow a wad on the best bike. Not being experienced means you most likely won't have the "best" bike for you once you discover its faults. You should instead put some time in the saddle of a decent or used bike and establish exactly what you like and dislike about that bike before moving on. Wouldn't it be better to blow the wad on a bike you knew would address all your concerns, rather than crossing your fingers hoping it will?
There is a lot a fitter can do to make a bike work for you, but it's your own talent and expectations added to that fit that makes the bike perfect. A good fitter can do his part, but you need to do your part too.
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DGauthier
new member
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 21
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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> Being a novice, I don't know if my backside can really tell the difference among finely-made Steel, Titanium, and Carbon bikes
If that's the case, why spend so much money on a bike until you've formed your tastes?
The point of diminishing returns for bicyles is way, way below the price points you are considering. A $1500 bike can get you 90% of the ride of a $5000 bike. Are you a novice to clipless pedals as well? If so, you are *guaranteed* to do at least one or two "horizontal track stands" - falling over motionless while clipped in. You're also gonna crash a lot initially (if you're like me), sometimes for the dumbest reasons. Do you really want to bash a $5000-6000 bike around while you're learning?
Why not buy a well fitted, reasonably priced production bicycle for less than half of what you are considering, and beat the living crap out of it? You'll have gobs of fun while deciding what you like and don't like. Most importantly, the mistakes you make regarding geometry, component choices, etc, will be small, cheap mistakes. Then you'll be in a much better postion when you want to drop the big coin on your ultimate ride.
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charlesf
new member
Reged: 03/18/04
Posts: 13
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Hmm...some sobering advice.
1. By production bike, do you mean a 'custom-made' model?
Or do you just mean a general, assembly line type?
2. How important is a fitted, custom-made model? If I just go for a modest ride at first, I'd think it would be important to eliminate the obvious problems that may arise from a bike that may not fit exactly.
3. Any recommendations for custom bikes? Seven's cheapest is $1000 (then add wheels and componentry), so a little pricey for a first serious (practice) bike.
I just felt that if others were lauding carbon so much, that it couldn't be too disappointing a ride. I didn't really want to spend a grand now (no chump change), then spend 3 or 4 a year or two from now. A thousand-dollar bike is still a thousand-dollar bike...
Charles
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Kevan
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 70
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Charles,
1. By production bike, do you mean a 'custom-made' model? Not likely. We're suggesting a bike that's off the rack, but this certainly depends on your body's build. In most cases an off the rack bike (Trek, Lemond, Giant etc.) can be molded to fit you. Generally these bikes are sold built and you can then work w/ the shop to swop out parts to better suit you (i.e. stem, cranks, saddle). Most people out there riding own these rigs cause they are in the right mind not to spend more than 2 grand for a bike. We here are lost souls. Basically, if you're serious about this don't waste another word on us and go get properly fitted. I ride a Calfee Luna 60cm, totally off the rack except I dictated the fork and finish. I worked with my shop in picking the trimmings.
2. How important is a fitted, custom-made model? Probably not as important as many people think. Now let me qualify that statement before I get booted off this forum. My point is most people can be properly fitted to an off the rack bike, they don't "need" customizing. That said, people find that to be a selling point and if that's what they want well...that's what they want. I'd add that customizing is more than just fit though. Frames can be tweaked for rider's weight and ride comfort (Stiff, soft) or handling (sensitive steering, relaxed hands-off steering), but here's where talent steps in, if you don't know what you want then how can you communicate your needs. Don't expect that all these nuances will be asked by the fitter, cause they're human and might make assumptions.
3. Any recommendations for custom bikes? You sound a bit hellbent to get one. Here's the deal. You ask us we'll tell you buy a Calfee. Go to Serottaland they too will tell you what they suggest and on and on it goes. Test ride some bikes and make your own decision.
Charles, here it is in plain english. These freakin' bikes are capable of doing a hellavu lot better than what you and I can do with them. These are TdF worthy rigs and if you and I attended the race, we'd never get out of Paris. Another thing... Once you're "in", then you have a big ugly monkey on your back. You'll be lusting for bikes the rest of your life.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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If you are a novice to the sport you really have not reached the point where you know how you want a bike to fit you. For example over few years and many thousands of miles when I started to ride again my stems went from 90 to 120 on the same bike. My position changed as my riding increased and my bike fitness changed. As a distance runner I was in condition but not biking condition. I grew to like a stretched out position more.
Another example is a friend named Ed. Ed is a fantastic cyclist and rode serious BMX until a year or so ago. Ed is in his mid thirties and a very strong rider. However if you saw how he bought and have his Seven set up you would be surprised. He has a very high position on the bike. He prefers that. He can ride faster than most folks from that position. He thinks my set-up is bad and I think the same of his. Who is right? It is what is right for you.
I personally feel that a Luna is the best buy of any bike available. When I bought mine Craig was riding a Luna. He built it to ride the same as the Tetra. The difference is weight and labor time. The wrapped lugs on a Tetra take a lot longer. Also the head tube and bottom bracket have wrapped aluminum in them and not Ti. Then again that is true of a Dragonfly. He did not put the 25 year warranty on it since at the time his construction techniques were different and his margin less. I had the good fortune of talking to Craig for about a 1/2 hour one day as I was making my decision. Money was not a huge issue but rather what was best for me. Craig said the Luna. How many business people have the ethics these days to name a lesser priced product as what is best for you? He is a one great guy. His position was since I did not race; I'm not very fast to begin with nor will I ever be, and I liked the look of the lugs on the Luna more then that was the best choice for me.
You can get more for your money buying a bike with the components already on it. The big companies get a huge price break on components and pass it along. However you may not get what you want. I feel it is less expensive to buy something once. After a used high end component frame I then built my next three bikes from the frame up. I then got exactly what I wanted from seatpost to seat to wheels and to components.
If you build up your own bike and want a carbon handlebar that is not a problem. You won't find many on a production bike. The same is true with a seatpost. I prefer carbon and Alpha Q has a great post at a great price. I have a favorite seat. There is an interesting article in the Velo buying guides about seats. It said not many necessarily ride the newest and lightest. They ride what they prefer and often saddles that are no longer in production. That is the case for me (Selle Italia Novus) and a good friend who races (Selle Italia Turbo).
My advice get the Luna, the ride, handling, stiffness etc. is the equal of a $2500 frame. Get the components you want. I'd read back into our old phorum. There are tons of wheel talk, component talk and such.
When I ordered my Luna I bought sight unseen. I had just heard about how good a Calfee was. I had never been on one. My hope was that I liked it as much as my Kestrel. Well it is the next rung up the ladder from my Kestrel much to my surprise. I could not be happier and to be honest I would not even consider buying another make bike. It is made here, Craig has a committment to USA made, he is a fantastic guy, they really care about you, and it is an awesome bike.
Good luck.
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bfd
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 77
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Repairability. I know Calfee is good about repairing his frames and can easily do it. Here's a picture of a frame with MAJOR damage, and it was fixed for like $250:
http://damonrinard.com/photos/calfeedoh.jpg
With regard to fitting, I agree with others that, if you don't know what you want or need, find a good shop that knows how to do fitting. Most people don't necessarily need *custom* fitting. It sounds good and most people want it, especially if you pay the big bucks for your bike, but you should get fitted by someone who knows what they're doing to make sure you absolutely need it.
test ride, contact Calfee (he has an 800 number), they might be able to refer you to a shop or an individual who would have a bike in your size to test ride.
As for buying a bike mail order or over the internet, again, make sure you know what you want and need. Otherwise, you might be getting something that doesn't necessarily fit and you won't want to ride. Now that's a waste of money!
Finally, the Luna is arguably one of the best buys, especially at its price point. If you want carbon, that is the one to get. Don't be swayed by all the marketeers that you NEED a fancy bike to go fast, remember, its the engine....
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DGauthier
new member
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 21
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Kevan already said most of what I would respond with, so I'll just add this: unless you are very tall or short, or have remarkably different proportions from most of the population, most production bikes (in your proper size) can be made to fit you fine. Just make sure to deal with a good shop that will do a thorough fitting with you and your new ride.
Also, keep in mind that it isn't written in stone that a custom bike will end up fitting you to perfection. You'll get a good bike, and you'll probably like it, but fitting a bicycle is not an exact science.
Finally, remember that an "off the rack" production bike is a known entity - you can test it out and get a feel for it and look at it *before* you buy it. A custom bike to some degree involves a leap of faith, and you don't know exactly what you'll get until you've got it (though most custom bike owners are extremely satisfied with the results).
Good luck and have fun!
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1centaur
journeyman
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
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If you don't want to spend a grand today and 3-4 grand in a couple of years, it's more true you don't want to spend 3-4 grand today and 3-4 in a couple of years. Buying a 3-4 grand bike today (after all components) is probably a mistake because you WILL change your preferences over 2-3 years if you ride a lot - because your body will change slowly (as in years, not months) but surely from the process of riding, AND because you will slowly learn about very subtle preferences you can't possibly anticipate today (hint - if you don't want to buy another bike, never buy a bike magazine or visit a bicycling forum again).
Here's how I did it when I got back into cycling - I bought a bike that was not top of the line but was considered a good bike by lots of people and had no obvious shortcomings - a bike many people would be happy riding for a lifettime (a Lemond Zurich with Ultegra). A year of riding that bike convinced me that losing a pound or two off the bike would make a lot of difference going over the last few hills at the end of a long ride, and a more comfortable bike would be nice (New England roads - jarring potholes - annoying). I tested Ti and carbon, found Ti to be a lot like steel (it was a Seven BTW), and chose the Tetra, utilizing an LBS fit-bike check to tune my position (big difference from the first shop - stand-over method). I have bought several bikes since then to give me variety, but the Tetra rules the roost - carbon is the most comfortable material (IMO), and Calfee can repair broken tubes fairly easily if that's a concern (I never quite fell over when I went clipless - but it was close).
Do you need custom? Are you an ape or a midget? Have people laughed at your proportions all your life? Do you have physical injuries or limitations? If no to all three, and you're pretty normally proportioned, a custom bike is almost certainly not only not needed, but a complete and utter waste of money. The cm here or there of tweaking that custom gives you will have to interact with the cm here or there you move around on your saddle as you get tired/sore/more experienced. A changed riding style will change your need for customization. Far better to save the dollars and go stock and not live under the impression that your fit is just a cm away from bliss if only you hadn't been so cheap. Most of us with many bikes ride them all quite happily, despite being a cm or a degree different here or there.
I say get the Luna frame and some good components, and then if you're short of cash in 2-3 years and want a new bike, you can take the components off and just buy a new frame, probably selling the Luna frame on eBay for a decent price, it not being custom and all. If your budget's even tighter, Giants are relative bargains, and eBay is a possibility if you pay for a professional fitting and get the right seller.
Don't worry, buy thoughtfully then ride!
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"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong
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charlesf
new member
Reged: 03/18/04
Posts: 13
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Thanks to all.
My final decision: a Merlin!
No, actually, I get the gist of what people have said (along with speaking to Steve Hampsten among others), and it makes the most sense to ease into riding again with a less expensive bike than I've been considering. I do plan on getting a fitting soon, and then from there, I can diagnose what exactly I need. Probably a good steel frame that can withstand the uneveness of New York City. 'Used' might be a good bet for slightly better quality; but that's a crapshoot. Either way, about a grand should do it.
I didn't really have a fixation on custom bikes, but some have told me that that was the way to go, if I was going to spend so much money. I'm 5'8", so probably a candidate for off-the-rack.
Charles
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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>>The Parlees retail for $2500, without fork, a bit steep (but perhaps worth it?), putting it a little above a Tetra.<<
Charles that Parlee is $500 more than the Tetra....that's your wheelset easily. The Luna is about $600 less than that and about 1/8 lb. heavier but rides very similar to the Tetra...most say the same. Maybe just a little point but I think that kind of money is significant.
I've said it before, and it's no mark against Calfee (which is a better frame) but the C-Dale C7 with Ultegra or 105 is a heck of a lot of bike for the money.
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SpinDoc
friend
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 35
Loc: Columbus,Ohio
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Can't say I disagree with any of that vaxn8r. Cannondale has taken a beating from a lot of raodies over the years but I for one am one who loved my R 900. The frame's still on the wall and begging for a rebuild if I ever get the time and extra cash.
FWIW I've spent a lot of time on both the Tetra and Luna and if I was blindfolded I couldn't tell the difference in ride.
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