Agentil
friend
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 25
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Hi!
Interesting problem to consider here...
I was doing a bunch of riding this past weekend and noticed something sorta odd when moderately or heavily braking while on downhills - my front tire would vibrate and cause my fork to sorta cavitate (vibrate/pulse) due to what appeared to be intermitant braking stress while evenly applying brake pressure.
This is odd to me because I would imagine most of the braking force would be absorbed at the brake pads or TOP of the fork, however it seems like some of the force is being directed down towards the end of the fork where the wheel hub sits (the moment of force is dropping). Like, if you looked over the bars, you could actually see the fork sorta bouncing back and forth 3-5 mm or thereabout while braking. Yikes!
My wheels are true, but I'm thinking that my rims might be a tad sqwushed at one or more areas of the circumfrance (where the brake pads don't make consistent contact with the rims as they spin through).
Does anyone have any suggestions? If it is perhaps the "sqwushed rim" thing, can the rims be fixed by my LBS?
Looking forward to your kind replys!
Cheers!
-Andrew D'spot D'fly
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bfd
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 77
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From the Bicycle FAQ:
Subject: 8h.5 Shimmy or Speed Wobble From: Jobst Brandt <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com> Date: Mon, 25 June 2003 14:13:14 PDT
Shimmy, a spontaneous steering oscillation of the front wheel, usually occurs at a predictable speed when riding no-hands. The likelihood of shimmy is greatest when the only rider-to-bicycle contact is at the saddle and pedals. This position gives the least damping by hands, arms, and legs. When shimmy occurs on descents, with hands on the bars, it is highly disconcerting because the most common rider response, of gripping the bars firmly, only increases it.
Shimmy is not related to frame alignment or loose bearings, as is often claimed. Shimmy results from dynamics of front wheel rotation, mass of the handlebars, elasticity of the frame, and where the rider contacts the bicycle. Both perfectly aligned bicycles and ones with wheels out of plane to one another shimmy nearly equally well. It is as likely with properly adjusted bearings as loose ones. The idea that shimmy is related to bearing adjustment or alignment has been established by repetition.
Bicycle shimmy is the lateral oscillation of the head tube about the road contact point of the front wheel and depends largely on frame geometry and the elasticity of the top and down tubes. It is driven by gyroscopic forces of the front wheel, making it largely speed dependent. It cannot be fixed by adjustments because it is inherent to the geometry and elasticity of the bicycle frame. The longer the frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy, other things being equal. Weight distribution also has no effect on shimmy although where that weight contacts the frame does. Bicycle shimmy is unchanged when riding no-hands, whether leaning forward or backward.
Among parameters that supposedly cause shimmy, spoke pattern and balance had no effect. Tests with wheels balanced and purposely unbalanced and ones with paired spokes as well as low spoke count caused no change in shimmy. Filling the front tire with water, doubling its mass, had no effect other than to change its frequency of oscillation slightly.
Shimmy requires a spring and a mass about which to oscillate and these are furnished by the frame and seated rider. Unloading the saddle (without standing up) will stop shimmy. Pedaling or rough road will also reduce the tendency to shimmy. In contrast, coasting no-hands downhill on a smooth road at more than 20mph with the cranks vertical seems to be the most shimmy prone condition.
When coasting no-hands, laying one leg against the top tube is the most common way to inhibit shimmy and also one of the most common ways to coast no-hands. Compliant tread of knobby tires usually have sufficient squirming damping to suppress shimmy. Weight of the handlebar and its extension from of the steering axis also affects shimmy.
Shimmy is caused by the gyroscopic force of the front wheel whose tilt is roughly at right angles to the steering axis, making the wheel steer to the left when it leans to the left. This steering action twists the toptube and downtube, storing energy that both limits travel and causes a return swing. Trail (caster) of the fork acts on the wheel to limit these excursions and return them toward center.
Shimmy that concerns riders occurs with the hands firmly on the bars is rider generated by muscular effect whose natural response is the same as the shimmy frequency, about that of Human shivering. Descending in cold weather can be difficult for this reason. The rider's "death grip" only enhances the incidence of shimmy. Loosely holding the bars between thumb and forefinger is a way of avoiding shimmy when cold.
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Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
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Lon
sage
   
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Have you replaced your brake pads lately? Are they perfectly flat and worn evenly? Do they perfectly align with the braking surface? Are the pads and your braking surface clean? Do your pads contact the wheel on each side at the same exact time?
All of the above could prove problematic when braking and all can be remedied.
How old is the wheel? If it is new and a good wheel it seems like the brake pads could be the first place to look.
I clean my braking surface and my pads after every ride. That has probably saved my butt on more than one occasion. Then look to see if they hit at the same time. Pull out your wheel and see how they are worn. If they are not hitting just the braking surface you will see a it less worn at the top or bottom.
Last I'd run Kool Stop Pads. I like the way they brake.
Good luck!
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NateM
new member
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 16
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Andrew, I have an old set of Mavic Helium wheels and Zipp 340 carbon's where the rim has worn down in between the spoke holes.In other words there are slight bulges at the spoke holes. This is first most noticable when coming to a stop under braking at slow speeds.The wheel chatters.Time for a new rim if this is your problem.Nate
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Jas0n
journeyman
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 62
Loc: Westchester, New York
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i hate to tell you this, but your frame is horribly misaligned. it frequently happens with expensive carbon frames, which, after exposure to uv light, become misaligned because the prientation of the carbon strands is skewed. unfortunately, it cannot be repaired and it will only get worse; this could be a potentially fatal problem. DO NOT RIDE YOUR FRAME. you will forced to buy a new frame and fork (the fork is also a throw away merely because it was installed on the misaligned frame; this misalignment can be passed from one strand to anyother via contact). to be a good person, i will offer you $100.00 for your frame;i will not ride it, of course, but display it on my wall. sorry for the bad news. jk.
-------------------- eat to live, live to ride
if it ain't rainin, it ain't trainin
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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Sounds like your front wheel might be out-of-round. A wheel can be out-of-round (i.e. slightly egg-shaped) yet still be true.
Another possibility is that your rim has a flat spot or a flared spot in it front hitting something hard.
Try borrowing a front wheel from somebody and see if the problem persists.
-------------------- "I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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Kahuna
Forum Admin
   
Reged: 12/11/03
Posts: 162
Loc: Maui, Hawaii
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My guess is a braking surface problem that's causing the brake calipers to "catch, bend, and release" at high frequency causing vibration. Normally this causes the brakes to squeal like a stuck pig but in this case it could be that his forks are unloading some of that energy and flexing.
The first thing to do is clean the rim with some detergent and water and dry. Next, you can lighty sand off any glazing or coating on the worn brake pads and see if that helps. Most importantly make sure the brake calipers have sufficient "toe-in". That is, you want to make sure the edge of the calipers closest to the direction of wheel travel are positioned a little closer to the wheel than the trailing edge. This will cause the close edge of the pads to make contact with the rim first when the brakes are applied and reduce the tendency of the calipers to "catch". However, whatever you do, if the toe-in angle is not correct, don't bend the calipers as this will weaken the brakes and set you up for a really bad day. P.S. Note: all this is posted in the rec.bicycles FAQ under squealing brakes.
A stiffer fork might also help.
-K
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Kevan
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 70
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Could the brake caliper be loose? Make sure its snug.
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Lon
sage
   
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Well Kevan that is an excellent point...is this the voice of experience?
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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My guess is that you have an ultra light weight rim and that spoke tension is too high and you are getting rim bulge where the nipples protrude. This will cause the exact set of symptoms you describe. It may be hard to tell at first but soon you will notice the familiar sign of rim wear only on parts of the rim where the nipples protrude. Little wear between nipples.
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APM
new member
Reged: 01/10/04
Posts: 5
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If your rim is good, the most likely culprit is brake shoe toe-in. It is possible that the chatter caused by the brakes is close to the resonant frequency of the forks, giving you the exaggerated flex and vibration that you are experiencing.
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