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Trillian
new member


Reged: 02/25/04
Posts: 5
Loc: Central Pennsylvania
New IF website
#2061 - 03/31/04 03:41 AM (24.159.134.40)

I just found a new unofficial IF website at www.IFrider.com. It apparently just went online. It's a bit sparse at the moment, but it has potential.

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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Re: New IF website new [Re: Trillian]
#2136 - 04/02/04 01:39 PM (66.82.9.46)

This ifrider.com is entirely "official" inasmuch as it is put up and supported by IF, just to clarify...
Just in case you want to see larger versions of the pictures in the Gallery on the ifrider site, you have to click on the number below the picture, not on the picture itself. This may seem obvious to others but it took IF answering my question to figure it out. It'll be nice to see a ton more pictures. These are the only TIG welded bikes in steel that I could give one hoot about (now that Ibis is gone...). Titanium is another story but in steel it's hard to get excited about TIG welding. Well, there is Hampsten and Pegoretti so I guess I take that back, but that's that, I say. Lugs are way cooler but for zoot factor IF, Hampsten, and Pegoretti get my attention and deserve the kudos. More soon on my Crown Jewel jones which is moving along...

dbrk


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Climb01742
journeyman


Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
Re: New IF website new [Re: dbrk]
#2146 - 04/02/04 09:01 PM (216.204.102.130)

speaking of crown jewel jonz...got a note from matt @ IF a few days ago saying that they had gotten all the tubes for my CJ ti in (finally) and frame was a few weeks away. if only h.g. wells time machine actually worked. AARRGH!!!!

--------------------
When in doubt, shut up and pedal.


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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
jones fulfilled... new [Re: Climb01742]
#2171 - 04/03/04 03:15 PM (68.174.125.223)

I was delighted to hear that Climb's bike is now in the works. Yesterday I finished up my order. I'll be getting a "modern race bike" which is a bit out of character for me but it will still be custom and "sized up," close to a French fit. Here's the dope:
*I started with a stnd 60cm
*Lenghtened the chainstays to 42.5, lowered the bb to 7.3, added headtube for a total 19.5cm, put in some 1.7d of slope (imperceptible), let the headtube come up just a bit over the headtube to match the feurler look of the seat tube, dt shifter bosses to keep my options open (just I do still ride dt shifters and the new 7800 DA rear works in 9spd just in case you didn't know that...)
*Paint: pearl white with black with yellow outline decals (just like in the 2001 catalogue), with the sterling headbadge.
*Fork...here is where I went really "modern" for me...I went with the Reynolds Ouzo which will be painted white (extra) to match. I am not so, so keen on straight bladed forks in steel, not that the shape of the fork has one real effect (it doesn't) on the ride.

The IF is promised for less than 4 weeks! Wow!

I'm also headed for a custom Hampsten Strada Bianca Ti to fine tune and improve even further the fit on my stnd geos compact VaMoots (which I think I sold to a pal...).

dbrk


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Climb01742
journeyman


Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
Re: jones fulfilled... new [Re: dbrk]
#2182 - 04/04/04 01:58 PM (24.218.178.253)

dbrk--sounds great. i assume its steel? pearl white paint is awesome. i'm going a bit wild on my paint--pearl orange. what do you think of the IF headtube badge? i'm not so sure. that tiny quibble aside, IF frames seem quite wonderful. i hope mine will arrive in 4 weeks too. please post a pix when you have it. climb.

--------------------
When in doubt, shut up and pedal.


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audissix
friend


Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 25
Re: jones fulfilled... new [Re: Climb01742]
#2189 - 04/05/04 01:27 AM (24.60.168.7)

I recently purchased a custom IF Crown Jewel Ti and love the custom sterling silver head badge, it's a nice addition to the uniqueness of the frame.

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MyDogWally
new member


Reged: 04/11/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: jones fulfilled... new [Re: dbrk]
#2340 - 04/11/04 04:28 PM (24.18.139.102)

Douglas,

Since I no longer hang around the Serotta board, I miss getting the wit and insights of dbrk. It's good to read your posts again. And congratulations on ordering an IF. I got the impression, from some of the posts on the Serotta board, that you weren't a huge fan of the way IFs ride. Did I misunderstand you?

My Dog Wally (Indy Fab in the Serotta forum)

--------------------

Is that your little friend in the wood chipper?


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Dave_Thompson
prophet
*****

Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Hey Your Dog! new [Re: MyDogWally]
#2341 - 04/11/04 05:03 PM (24.17.236.162)

Why no longer on the Serotta forum?

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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MyDogWally
new member


Reged: 04/11/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: Dave_Thompson]
#2342 - 04/11/04 05:26 PM (24.18.139.102)

Dave,

I don't know. There's just so many hours in a day. Besides, I got really annoyed by that troll in the Serotta forum, and even more annoyed by Serotta's reaction to it.

--------------------

Is that your little friend in the wood chipper?


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Dave_Thompson
prophet
*****

Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: MyDogWally]
#2343 - 04/11/04 06:03 PM (24.17.236.162)

I agree, a tad overkill.

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: Dave_Thompson]
#2348 - 04/12/04 01:16 AM (66.82.9.14)

MyDogWallyakaIndyFabPal!

Nice to see you here. 'Tis true that the old Serotta phorum spun outta' control but it's all civil again and folks largely mind their ways. Heck, it seems I'm among the most...I dunno, I'd hardly call myself "controversial" but I'm willing to say what I think whether or not it is flattering.

So you are right in one respect about what I have said about IF Crown Jewels and that is that in standard geometries I don't much fancy the ride or the fit. But with just a little tweaking I feel not only confident but perfectly delighted with their offering. In my case I prefer a taller headtube, so I size up and then add some headtube, then add 1.5d of slope (not even noticeable), and shorten the toptube, drop the bb a bit, lengthen the chainstay a bit, voila! I believe this bike will retain the best of the IF features but fit taller, ride just as comfortably, and be the sort of racerboy you want to ride all day. With stnd geos Crown Jewels the headtubes are pretty short and the top tubes are pretty long: these two factors combine to create more overall bar/saddle drop than suits me. Of course, as you lengthen the top tube you get increasing drop and the shorter head tube further contributes. But I got that covered.

There's another fieature of IF that I really like: they are such reasonable, not too too rigid folks in both their design and their sales. To wit, Matt listened carefully, got on to my idea, trusted me to give him the right numbers, and allowed me to imprint the essential design. Others have hassled me or treated me like I...uhh...don't know what I am doing. My closest IF dealer is a solid 50 miles away so they let me buy direct. This rocks! I have no particular need for the LBS involved in my bike purchases and don't want or need a dealer's input or help. Other companies are so darn fixated on their dealers---Serotta, Seven, others---that they won't deal with you directly. This has prevented me from buying a Serotta for many years and I am still ill-disposed to their dealer policy which is totally unnecessary for me. Why there can't be direct dealings really sort of makes me crazy...but IF as loyal as they are to their dealers are reasonable and I am grateful I live so far out in the boonies that there are no near bike shops (let alone dealers).

I have a wonderful Planet Cross, so wonderful in fact that I will have it repainted at the end of the summer for next cross season. It's seen a ton of races and miles and deserves a refurb..

So, with a few adjustments I am a huge fan of IF designs. As far as welded American bikes go, there are none better, none, not even close. Welds, paint, finishing, care, service: these guys are very solid and also very easy. I like both features a lot.

Few other companies have all of these features and the personal touch. Hampsten is like this, just wonderful to work with and great, great bikes on the other end of a deal.

Nice to see you here, IndyFabMyDogWally. Let's talk more. (Kudos to Kahuna for making this place for us...)

dbrk


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MyDogWally
new member


Reged: 04/11/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: dbrk]
#2354 - 04/12/04 01:25 PM (24.18.139.102)

Douglas,

As always, a thorough and thoughtful posting. In fact, I'd call it downright professorial, in the best sense of the word. I had no idea you were such an IF fan.

If you don't mind my asking this: I'm very interested in the cause-and-effect of the tweaks you made to your new IF. If this is too much of an imposition, please feel free to tell me. But I was wondering if you could talk about each modification (lowered BB, sloped TT, etc.) and tell me (us) how it affects the ride or handling. I'd love to understand how this stuff works.

In hindsight, I wish I'd gotten a bit of a head tube extension on my TCJ, if for no other reason than the two carbon spacers I'm using give the head tube a bit of a smoke stack look.

Regarding the Serotta forum, the trolling and hysterical reaction to it were tough to handle but, for me, the worst part of that board -- and it still exists -- is the avalanche of personal emails being passed off as public postings. While I very much appreciate that people have made intense and lasting friendships as a result of the forum, I don't particularly want to read their personal communications.

It's great to see you here. What can we do to give this forum some legs?

The best to you,

My Dog Wally (nee Indy Fab)

--------------------

Is that your little friend in the wood chipper?


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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: MyDogWally]
#2356 - 04/12/04 02:45 PM (66.82.9.52)

Quote:

MyDogWally wrote:

If you don't mind my asking this: I'm very interested in the cause-and-effect of the tweaks you made to your new IF. If this is too much of an imposition, please feel free to tell me. But I was wondering if you could talk about each modification (lowered BB, sloped TT, etc.) and tell me (us) how it affects the ride or handling. I'd love to understand how this stuff works.

It's great to see you here. What can we do to give this forum some legs?





A frame design and its ride are putatively closely related, that is, we do certain things to the design and we are _supposed_ to get certain results. But there is some mystery in the last 2% which is where most road designs differ; what I mean is that 98% of all designs are identical and it's the last 2% that make all the difference. This is yet another pet peeve theory but it's not far from off by the numbers.

What makes IF so interesting is how far out from the "norm" they are with their standard geometries. How exactly this effects the ride has proven quite subjective. Many owners and riders rave; other "professional" reviewers (Mr Millar comes to mind in ProCycling or somewhere, he positively disliked the IF but I am convinced that Millar got stuck on the numbers thing and that his riding and preferences have essentially nothing to do with anyone but hardcore racers. He typically loves bone-shattering AL frames with 10cm of saddle/bar drop and the most aggressive handling possible. Why these ex-pros are set up as reviewers, like Boardman too, is totally beyond me. Being just marginally short of utterly illiterate, their impressionistic journeys are fraught with racer's edge prejudices that have little bearing on most riders, especially ones who can afford these bikes and aren't given them.) Anyway, I digress as usual.

Here's what the changes in the IF CJ geos are supposed to do. Whether or not it realllllly turns out that way is part of the Mystery that is bicycles...Start your calculations with a standard 60cm IF CJ. I like to start with a builder's standard because it represents something like their idea of the "perfect ride." If you are going to make an entirely custom bike from the get-go, I would not go to IF particularly but to the sort of builder who isn't bespoke (like Sachs or Rivendell where you give input and _they_ build the bike, which is perfect but it is what they decide is best) but more like Carl Strong who gives input (wise input!) but lets the rider determine more...Here are the changes that amount to tweaks of significance for fit as well as (again putatively) for ride:
*Headtube lengthened to 19.5cm from 17.6cm. I am still a tad concerned that this will be too short. I'm always concerned for this. But I project a bar height from the floor around 96cm which is perfect. Anything less than 94 is not good for me and that 17.6 is way too short...As you raise the headtube you effectively shorten the top tube so...
*Actually shorten the top tube to 58cm because IF have reallllly long top tubes. But this is still a long top tube and I will use an 11cm stem, likely an 84d Ritchey which will look sort of "normal" for a modern threadless race bike. The fork rake was kept at 40mm because of the relatively slack headtube angle on a bike this large, the idea being to keep the steering neutral and the trail at the "magic" number of 59mm. This was part of the sizing/design discussion with Matt: trail being the key since I wanted a neutral, stable bike.
*Lengthening the chainstays will also stabilize the bike on descents, and while the overall wheelbase is longer on a bike this big, you need to make the stays a bit longer to keep the bike _proportionally_ stable to its size.
*I lowered the bb because the higher bb on a 60 is a feature more of crankarm length. In other words, most guys on 60s use 175s but I use 172.5s so don't need the higher bb for any clearances. That said, pedalling through corners is not my style. Lowering the bb is nearly always a good idea but it costs you head tube height! So I brought it down only to 7.0cm to keep the front end tall and the overall feel of the bike still racer-ish.
*I sloped the top tube 1.5d in order to eliminate most of the head tube extension issues. Any slope less than 3d is not really noticeable without looking hard. This is an aesthetic matter principally but if you can reduce ht ext and keep the seat tube feuler lower, you have a better looking, more even frame.
*Seat tube angle stays at 72.5

The overall effect of these changes will be to make the bike relaxed, stable, still a good turner in the corners and a very stable descender, albeit no Rivendell on descents but perhaps a more agile climber.

That's the idea. We shall soon see. Yikes.

dbrk


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MyDogWally
new member


Reged: 04/11/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: dbrk]
#2372 - 04/13/04 04:23 PM (24.18.139.102)

Fantastic post, Douglas. Thanks so much. Bike geometry -- and how it affects the ride -- has all the intuitive qualities of alchemy. So much is written in these forums about it, much of it contradictory. I appreciate you taking the time to make some sense of this.

MDW (nee Indy Fab)

--------------------

Is that your little friend in the wood chipper?


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Climb01742
journeyman


Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: MyDogWally]
#2429 - 04/16/04 12:01 AM (24.218.178.253)

indy/wally,
i have no standing to offer an opinion, but i shall anyway...

are you perhaps being a tad hard on the serotta forum? specifically, the ratio of cycling posts to personal posts. i believe i know what you mean, but may i offer two thoughts: sometimes its hard to separate the two, our cycling info from our friendships; and isn't it easy to just skip the posts you don't wish to read?

it is obviously your choice to hang or not hang over at serottaville. but the bond between members there, and the liviliness of the banter, is, in my view, a good thing. maybe give it another shot? or just tell me to butt out.

--------------------
When in doubt, shut up and pedal.


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Dave_Thompson
prophet
*****

Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Hey Climb! new [Re: Climb01742]
#2432 - 04/16/04 12:07 AM (24.17.236.162)

What's new in your bicycle world?

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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MyDogWally
new member


Reged: 04/11/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: Climb01742]
#2435 - 04/16/04 01:10 PM (24.18.139.102)

Climb,

No, I have no inclination to tell you to shut up. You're entitled to your opinion, and it's a valid one, in my book. As I said in a previous post, I really do appreciate the friendships that have developed in that forum. But since my reason for using that forum is solely to get intelligent information on bikes and riding, I have zero interest in reading personal communications. It wouldn't bug me if these types of postings comprised, say, five percent of the total posts. But on some days, these postings account for well over 50 percent. For me -- and others obviously disagree with me -- that's just too much chat. As for skipping those kinds of postings, oftentimes they occur in legitimate threads, so you have to read them first before you realize that their content is not to your liking.

I have nothing against Serotta, their bikes, or the people who use the forum. In fact, I greatly admire Serotta for helping to build an online community to support cycling, which is an activity I could never get IF to show any interest in.

MyDogWally (nee Indy Fab)

--------------------

Is that your little friend in the wood chipper?


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Climb01742
journeyman


Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: MyDogWally]
#2464 - 04/17/04 09:38 PM (24.218.178.253)

wally, your position is thoroughly valid as well. i'm not the most technically savvy bike geek, so the mix of info to chat matches my inclinations. but i can see your point vividly.

on to a cycling matter, then. in just a few weeks, my first IF should arrive. a ti crown jewel. sloping tt and carbon seatstays. it was designed to be a true climbing demon. to match my climbing style, we designed in some BB flex. its been an interesting trial and error for me to find, or try to find, the optimum flex/stiffness combo for my frames. the IF folks were very open to trying stuff. i'm looking forward to joining the IF ranks soon. i'll be the guy on a pearl orange frame. climb.

--------------------
When in doubt, shut up and pedal.


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MyDogWally
new member


Reged: 04/11/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: Climb01742]
#2474 - 04/18/04 01:52 PM (24.18.139.102)

Climb,

Congratulations on joining the smallest owner's group in the country. Well, at least on the west coast. I imagine you'd see quite a bit more IFs in MA than you would in WA. Anyway, I'm always interested in the choice of a sloping TT. What's the reason you went that way? I'm not sure I understand what problem a sloping TT solves. Even dbrk was a little fuzzy on that one.

MDW

--------------------

Is that your little friend in the wood chipper?


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ifrideradmin
new member


Reged: 04/18/04
Posts: 1
ifrider.com new [Re: MyDogWally]
#2476 - 04/18/04 04:35 PM (130.88.96.66)

Hullo

I've taken onboard the comments made about the ifrider.com site since it's launch and have added a FAQ section to the membership page and tried to make it clearer how you can get the big photos of each bike within the IF model pages.

The site is a one man operation but would have been impossible without the help of others, not least the approval and support of the team at IF HQ. I'm putting together some more stuff for the members only section and will e-mail current members when this goes on-line, which will probably be the beginning of next month.

Thanks to all of those that have either registered bikes on the site or have told others about it being there. Word is spreading and the site is receiving visitors from all over the world.

Cris Bloomfield
ifrider.com


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Climb01742
journeyman


Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
Re: Hey Your Dog! new [Re: MyDogWally]
#2479 - 04/18/04 09:53 PM (24.218.178.253)

MDW--in my case, a slopin TT solves no problem. i chose one for two reasons: i have a number of frames, both traditional and compact geo, and i personally find the compact geo frames have a tad more snap, just a bit more acceleration; and i just like how sloping TTs look. so even if the first reason is just in my head, the second reason is good enuf. and even here near boston, IF frames are few and far between. which is a plus to me. today i was riding one of my pegoretti's, and three different riders, at different moments, said they'd never heard of a peg. kinda nice to be odd.

--------------------
When in doubt, shut up and pedal.


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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
arrivee! new [Re: Climb01742]
#2527 - 04/22/04 10:46 AM (66.82.9.71)

Yesterday my Crown Jewel SE arrived. Pearl white with black and yellow decals, painted to match Ouzo fork (yikes, it costs for that!), the cool headbadge. It means to be a comfortable race bike, though that is actually a contradiction in terms. I'm responsible for the design though I started with a 60cm stock CJ as my leaping point and then laxed up the angles, added head tube without extension, and put in some unnoticeable slope (about 1.5d), so it comes c-c to about 59cm and change. It's the 195mm headtube that will get the fit right...hopefully. There is a certain alchemical thing about sizing, as we all know. You _think_ you got it right...then...Well, we shall see.

The welds are swell, clean, and lovely, though on this one not as perfect as they are (were, sold) my Barbie-paint job (it was too small too) Planet Cross. Those were the best I've seen. IF is consistent and excellent but sometimes they are better and something they are TIGy. No Italian or Taiwanese-made Italian bike comes close to the welds of an IF.

I got this bike because I wanted a CJ that fit me better than any one that I have had before. I have a tall Planet Cross too and I really love that bike. It deserves more riding and new paint. At the prices that IF now gets for paint, however, I will have JB repaint it (if it comes to that). No one does better paint than JB and if companies like IF and Serotta (who both have really good paint) want to charge JB prices then I'm going to JB. Certain other companies (want me to name them?) don't come close to IF or Serotta and as good as they are with paint, JB is better, period.

I hope this bike is really swell. It's my own fault about the upcharge for the paint though it was just pearl and the fork, no panels. I would have been just as happy without the pearl now that I see it.

I think I will really enjoy this bike. No TIG'd bike could be anything like a "dream bike" for me. I dream a lot and those bikes all have lugs. This one is supposed to be fun and pay a certain homage to a great American builder. Ride reports to follow. I need a front derailleur.

dbrk


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JackL
new member


Reged: 03/10/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Seattle
Re: arrivee! new [Re: dbrk]
#2531 - 04/22/04 02:59 PM (207.202.164.8)

dbrk,

Thanks for the post on your new addition! Of course I'm curious to find out how you build it up and how it rides. I hope you build it up light because I think this brings the best out of the Crown Jewel's qualities. I can't stay off my CJ, in spite of some other nice (and far prettier) bikes in my garage.

I'm a little disappointed about the variable weld quality, since the welding and overall build quality (and some would add quirky geometry) separate IF from the faceless hordes of similar welded steel frames. My 3-yr old CJ looks almost filet brazed.

Looking forward to ride report,
JackL


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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Ride Report new [Re: JackL]
#2545 - 04/24/04 01:00 AM (66.82.9.17)

First, a comment on aesthetics. I've now gone over the bike very carefully: the welds are very clean, the paint is clean, even, and proper. A word to those thinking about an IF: the upcharge for pearl paint is significant and I wouldn't do it again. This is a lovely pearl white but I was under the impression that the white was not an upcharge. I am not at all "blaming" IF and assume every reesponsibility. Next, I was very clear about ordering OS tubing, especially the chainstays. As I see it, the chainstays are the "normal" sized Reynolds, not the OS. This is quite disapppointing. I got a story today from IF about how these are the right ones for this bike. Okay. It was more an aesthetic choice with some consequences for the ride, but it was an aesthetic choice primarily. I feel like they might have listened more carefully to what I specifically requested but these are exactly the sorts of things that happen with just about every custom builder. I could "send it back" or raise a stink but instead I've chosen just to note that it is a minor disappointment, again only on the aesthetic front. I suppose I will get over it. Lesson here: be very, very clear, and say it loudly. Leave nothing to the discretion of the builder if you have strong preferences. I am the sort with very strong preferences.

I had a great deal of input in the geometry and design of the bike and today's quick 33 mile ride confirmed that the fit is perfect. Just right for a threadless forked bike for me. I like a tall front end, an uncramped cockpit, very little saddle to bar drop. The most important ride quality measure to me is how a bike descends and how it feels with hands off the bars. I like very, very stable descenders and bikes that are very easy to control with hands off the bars. I am less concerned with "climbing" since I think that that is mostly in the motor, not in the frame. I like a bike that is very compliant, even soft on the road but one that will not let me rub the bb out of the saddle and when I am humpin' a climb. I want a very stiff bb but a very soft overall ride. In carbon forks I like a feeling of being direct but very, very steady, stable, and never sketchy. I like the fork soft too, never too harsh or even harsh at all, but when the bike descends I like to feel like the fork and the bike are together: nothing much to pay attention to, just go as fast as you can.

Today's ride was over the usual rolling terrain that characterizes the hills and dells of western New York's Finger Lakes. There are no flats, so you are either climbing hard or easy; you shift a lot; there are descents that are very, very fast; many of the turns have gravel and other dangers; there are no cars to speak of; plenty of shoulder, plenty of room to ride in the middle of the road or anywhere you want. I had less than two hours and it's _hard_ around here, I tell you, so 33 miles is not yeraverage33miler.

The Crown Jewel not only fits me brilliantly, it meets every mark I have set forth here. This is a genuinely _great_ riding bike. It is a fantastic descender. I took two descents at well over 50mph. The bike was steady as a rock. This Reynolds Ouzo Pro is a stellar fork. On the climbs the bike responded nicely to input and never once could I rub the bb or front derailleur. I tried really hard to get the bike to do something untoward and it would not. I pounded on the false flats and really pushed hard on the mild descents. I pushed three times hard into corners but you have to be careful here for the nasties of gravel and road dust this early in the spring. In every case, the Crown Jewel excelled. I am not easily impressed. I am often, to be honest, not excited by a bike even when I am content. This is a great rider.

It is not particularly light and I wonder what makes it so. The build is really intended to be light but I'd say the bike weighs 20-21lbs. Here's what it has:
HS CK 1.125"
bb Ultegra
crank DA with Stronglight 53/38 rings (too big a big ring for me)
f/r ders Record 9 with Rec 9 Ergo
bars and stem Ritchey WCS Pro
saddle and pillar Regal (here's some weight) and Thomson
wheels are DA hubs to 28h Open Pros, DA 12-27 cassette
tires Hutchinson Gold somethings, the good ones

Everyone knows that all 9 works perfectly with all other 9, just match shifters to rear der., use whatever crank/bb and hubs/cassettes you want, it all shifts perfectly. Everything on this bike functions perfectly. You can come over and ride it yerself to see. The really interesting thing is that these are light wheels and still the bike is not really a featherweight. The conclusion I draw is simple: when a bike is well-designed and made and the fit is this correct then you don't notice or care about the weight. To wit, a bike that fits and is well-designed simply does NOT feel heavy in any way. This is why Singers feel perfect too and they are all more than 22lbs. This bike has balance, even temper, a sweet, soft ride, and answers the call to descend and take the pressure of hard riding. I have no complaints about the way the chainstays ride or anything about the tubes. It's just perfect as a rider. My one quirk is that I was looking for a Small Legged Emma, sort of a Dario-near'tobe and its got just normal looking legs. Okay, that's fine, the ride is wonderful and Dario will build me an Emma with Big Legs (hopefully, someday, if he ever gets the tubes...)

That's it for now. Questions? I hope this wasn't too tedious.

dbrk


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Climb01742
journeyman


Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
Re: Ride Report new [Re: dbrk]
#2550 - 04/24/04 08:37 PM (24.218.178.253)

douglas, your report was anything BUT tedious. wonderful report. great details and insight. my ti CJ came out of paint today (sat.) and needs to cure until monday or tuesday. then i'll build it up with DA 10. it has pearl orange paint. given your reaction to your pearl white (9 times out of 10, my alltime fav color) i'm even more curious to see my color in the flesh. if i can make it to your 2nd tour (boy am i hoping to!) i'll bring my CJ and we can compare rigs. curious too how my welds will look. the CJ i saw at my lbs had perfecto welds. your description of a soft but efficient ride quality ideally mirrors my wishes, but we're coming at it from a different way--softer BB but firmer TT, meaning a flexier bottom half of the frame, but stiffer top half. an interesting experiment. hope it works out. matt bracken has been really nice during my not so patient wait. i admire your frame knowledge. to know so well what you want, and how to achieve it, must be cool. i'm still on that road, trying to learn--with way too many detours and mistakes! i hope the ride of your IF continues to be sublime. and please keep the reports coming. climb.

--------------------
When in doubt, shut up and pedal.


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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Subsequent Decision new [Re: Climb01742]
#2556 - 04/25/04 03:16 AM (66.82.9.55)

While am very very happy with the way the Crown Jewel rides, I am deeply disappointed in the simple fact that the builder decided to use the Reynolds chainstays rather than the ovalized Foco. I specifically asked for OS tubing all around. Perhaps IF considers the Reynolds to fit that bill. To me, these are not OS sized tubes in the chainstays. I must take responsibility for this because I did not specifically ask for the Foco stays, I assumed that they were part of the OS tubing. And, if you ask me and I suppose I see a lot of bikes, there is no way that I would refer to the Reynolds stays as OS. If you want the FOCO stays BE SURE TO ASK because this might happen: and that is the point of this note.

This is purely an aesthetic matter. I am even sure that the bike rides no differently with these Reynolds stays. Heck, it might even ride better but that's not the point! I was looking for a bike and for a look: aesthetic choices are part of the ride, as far as I am concerned and I know exactly what I want in fit, size, and look. If somehow the situation is not resolved then I will immediately post the bike for sale. It's a 59cm with 1.5d slope (so you don't notice); it has a 58cm top tube, 19.5cm headtube. I'll know on Monday, April 26th. Dammit, this upsets me (and if this is all that I have in the world to upset me then I am one very lucky fella...).

I'm sort of sad, frustrated, trying to be philosophical. But this is not what I really wanted and I am too damn old, cranky, and sure of what I want to keep anything that is not perfect. This may be my own fault and my own expensive (again) lesson. That's the way it goes though.

dbrk


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terry
new member


Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 47
Loc: Southeastern MA
Re: Subsequent Decision new [Re: dbrk]
#2560 - 04/25/04 12:15 PM (24.218.121.204)

dbrk: i've been following your saga and i have to say you've come to the correct conclusion, as i knew you would, i was just wondering how long it would have taken. i have gone thru a similar situation and am somewhat opiniated, as you, when it comes to my bikes. no matter what the ride was like, and you do seem to give that a definative thumbs up, you would never be happy. there would always be that little nagging sensation that would drive you batty. good luck in your quest.

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Climb01742
journeyman


Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
Re: Subsequent Decision new [Re: terry]
#2566 - 04/25/04 10:19 PM (24.218.178.253)

douglas, you should be happy (in totality) with the bike. accepting something less doesn't seem like an appropriate option. my guess is, from what i'ver heard about IF, that they will step up. i know from personal experience that ben stepped up big time when my ottrott wasn't right. please keep us posted on the outcome. knowing how IF handles this will say much about the company. they seem like stand-up folks. here's hoping.

--------------------
When in doubt, shut up and pedal.


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JackL
new member


Reged: 03/10/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Seattle
Re: Subsequent Decision new [Re: Climb01742]
#2580 - 04/26/04 03:24 PM (207.202.164.8)

dbrk,

Thanks for the informative and heartfelt reports. I agree with your feelings on not getting the Foco chainstays; they are are one of the nicer features of the CJ. It was flat-out wrong of IF to make a substitution without your consent. On their website, IF represents the CJ as having Foco chainstays. Therefore, it is their responsibility to inform you if a change from their 'standard spec' was to be made, not the other way around.

I'm surprised IF doesn't require the buyer to sign a specification sheet which indicates proposed frame geometry, size and type of each tube, paint scheme, and other pertinent information.

JackL


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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
FS: BRAND NEW CROWN JEWEL SE with OUZO PRO new [Re: JackL]
#2582 - 04/26/04 04:33 PM (66.82.9.31)


FS: IF Crown Jewel SE BRAND NEW 59CM


I just got this brand new, BRAND new IF Crown Jewel SE, made of a mix 853 and True Temper. It measures 59cm c-c with a 58cm top tube, the headtube is 19.5cm, it has 1.5d of slope to eliminate headtube extension. It is painted a beautiful pearl white with black/yellow decals. There's a picture in the Custom gallery. The angles are quite relaxed, something like 72.5sta/73hta. Fork is an uncut Ouzo Pro painted to match.

Why sell when I just paid $2340 delivered? Because IF used Reynolds chainstays rather than the OS Foco. I thought the Foco were standard but apparently they are not. It's just not what I wanted and I suppose I should have been _perfectly_ clear. IF will not take the bike back. Lesson learned. Blowout price here is $1600 plus shipping. I will include the CK black installed headset. Shipping is $65 insured.

BRAND NEW.
Talk to me about fit if you need help. I know a thing or two about that.

I'm just disgusted. Someone buy this bike, please.

dbrk
































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MyDogWally
new member


Reged: 04/11/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: FS: BRAND NEW CROWN JEWEL SE with OUZO PRO new [Re: dbrk]
#2583 - 04/26/04 04:38 PM (24.18.139.102)

What was IF's reasoning for not wanting to do anything about fixing your bike?

--------------------

Is that your little friend in the wood chipper?


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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Re: FS: BRAND NEW CROWN JEWEL SE with OUZO PRO new [Re: MyDogWally]
#2584 - 04/26/04 04:43 PM (66.82.9.31)

I asked for a stiff rear end and they substituted the stays they thought appropriate. I had NEVER seen an CJ SE with anything but the FOCO stays and I assumed that is what they would build. The builder read the notes for a stiff rear and used the Reynolds.

IF has offered to make me another at cost but since the bike was made for me and I asked for the stiff stays then the situation is, as it were, my problem. They did not offer to take the bike back. Selling a bike is a hassle, as we all know. So I am not pleased with their offer but I suppose I did not _specificially_ ask for the FOCO stays though their printed literature states plainly that that is what they are using. I mentioned this too and the reply was that they use the stays to match the ride requested. So that is that. I have a bike I don't want and they don't want. Anybody want it?

dbrk


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vaxn8r
contributor


Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
Re: FS: BRAND NEW CROWN J