charlesf
new member
Reged: 03/18/04
Posts: 13
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I've queried Calfee about this question (and I'm awaiting a response), but I also wanted the experiences of bike owners.
As good a ride as carbon gives, is it a durable material?(it's obviously strong). I've heard quite a few squeamish criticisms on the Web about the fragility of carbon in an accident (not necessarily a wipe-out, but something that registers impact). Lee Bridgers of dreambike.com decided that he preferred a titanium frame (Moots) because of its better durability (or at least better immunity from problems). He worked with carbon (not bike related) and found that while it was very strong, it could chip easily --and such chipping could lead to major failures. He also points out that slight mistakes in the laying process, or the joining of tubes, can lead to big problems. Once a carbon frame is weakened, it's forever under suspicion. And once a tube snaps, who knows the outcome or the cost of repair. I have heard about Tyler Hamilton's exploits (multiply crashing his bike during a race), but he probably didn't use the bike again.
I was just tring to confirm what frame material is best over the long haul. Ti, carbon or steel, all are expensive at the high-end, and I'm not sure I want to risk spending a ton of money on something that could become problematic after a tip-over or something of that magnitude (things that can happen to a non-professional rider).
Have been considering Parlee and Moots, in addition to Calfee.
Charles
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beegeddie
new member
Reged: 02/24/04
Posts: 9
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I have a ti bike, Litespeed Classic, and a Calfee Tetra Pro. Both are very nice rides, the Tetra Pro noticably better. As far as overall durability goes, I think the titanium is probably better. It will take quite a crash to damage it beyond riding ability. However, carbon is probably more easily reparable when it comes to non-catastrophic damage, and Calfee is probably the best at doing this, because they've been doing it for a long time. I've seen some amazing pictures on this form of damaged carbon bikes that have been repaired by Calfee and came out as good as new.
To be honest, I don't think you can go wrong with either material, especially with the companies you're considering. It's a nice decision to have.
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DGauthier
new member
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 21
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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In terms of long term durability (independent of repairability), you can't go wrong with either ti or steel. If ease of repair is a concern, a lugged steel frame is the easiest/cheapest to repair to a like new condition. See Tom Kellogg's comments here.
Note, however, that typically a titanium frame will be paired with a carbon fork. If you chip, scuff or gouge a carbon fork, you'll be wanting to replace it. Good high end lugged steel bikes come with good high end lugged steel forks, which will last just as long as the frame.
Any web search on the topics of carbon fiber failure will bring up a wealth of information that supports the concerns you raise. Carbon fiber performs extremely well in a perfect world, but after a few knocks and scrapes the performance of arbitrary carbon parts becomes very difficult to quantify. Not what you want, IMHO, for sports equipment that your life depends on.
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Wisdom
new member
Reged: 04/09/04
Posts: 3
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Check the price for replacing a tube in a lugged steel frame and repainting it. You'll buy a new frame for the few bucks difference.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 710
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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...while everyone is speculatively obsessing on the durability of various frame materials, two salient points are being ignored; first, which is the best frame material for the ride that you want, and second, out of all the miles you have ridden, how many times did you crash bad enough to require a major frame repair. Granted there are individuals who have had serious frame damage, but I think that percentage in extraordinarily low. The majority of us ride for many years and many thousands of miles, and our biggest concern is paint chips.
I certainly would not base the purchase of a bicycle solely on how much it cost to repair, any more than I would base the purchase of a car on gas mileage alone.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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I have an '97 OCLV with about 27K miles on it. Not that much but about 8 times more than many told me I'd ever get out of it. It's still going strong as my fendered rain bike. I just got a new Tetra Pro this year.
How long do you need it to last? Does the fact that ti will easily outlast you and your grandkids factor in? Aren't you going to want a new frameset anyway in 5-10 years? I'm on my 5th high end road bike in 20 years. I like getting new bikes every so often. It keeps me fresh, interested, motivated and competitive. I still have them all too and they are all ridable. But the old ones don't perform like the new ones. Don't get me wrong, I still love the ride of my 80's Masi and Mercx. I just don't keep up as well with the hotheads on their 17 lb whatevers when I'm on my old 21 lb. steel steed. Interestingly, my least favorite of all my bikes was a '92 Litespeed Classic. Just didn't perform how I wanted it too....of course, at the time, I just had to have that bike.
Anyway, I guess if you're disciplined in your purchases and you drive cars and bikes for 20+ years, maybe ti or steel is for you. Except maybe if you ride in the rain. Maybe that rules out steel. Decision made. Good luck.
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bfd
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 77
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Calfee's are not only durable, but *easily* repairable. For example:
http://www.damonrinard.com/photos/calfeedoh.jpg
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DGauthier
new member
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 21
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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CharlesF already said he likes the ride of carbon fiber. His question was solely about durability. Just one data point of many, I'm sure.
By the way, CharlesF, any flaws or problems associated with the layup or bonding of the tubes would be covered by Calfee's excellent warranty, which is for 10 to 25 years, depending on the model. (Calfee's are wonderful bikes, and I think the possibility of a Calfee frame crumbling beneath you as you're Just Riding Along are slim to none.)
However, the warranty will not cover failure caused by chips/scuffs/gouges or whatever else the frame might pick up during its lifetime.
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dfcas
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 136
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I bent a Waterford made steel fork in rough terrain (no crash) and sent it to them for repair.They said it had exceeded its limits and would not repair it ,nor would they return it to me to hang on my "trophy" rack.I understand the legal liabilities involved and don't blame them.
I replaced it with a carbon fork since I'd rather have a yes/no choice,rather than a maybe.
I replaced a Ti (Litespeed) frame with a Calfee and I feel it was the best choice I ever made.If I crash it,I'll send it back to Calfee for repair or replacement.Until then,I'll enjoy the ride and performance.
Dan
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no signature
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nicrump
new member
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 42
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it is for sure easier to build a new fork than replace a blade or crown in a bad one. still have to do a full jig set up coupled with dis assy of the old fork.
a good builder can build a fork in less than 20 min to the sand blaster.
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MSO
new member
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 18
Loc: Calif
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I have both a Ti Bike and a Calfee. From a durability standpoint in my opinion you'd be better off with a high end steel bike or Ti. I've seen to many "minor" crashes that cause a carbon bike to crack. As for ride quality it depends on what you like. I went to Ti after spending 10 plus years on a DeRosa steel, I loved that bike. When I test rode bikes the Ti had the feel I loved. To me my Seven Ti has the ride of a Ferrari, stiff, fast and accelerates quickly. My Luna is a Lexus, comfortable and smooth but gets up to speed nicely. Both great bikes but used for different riding conditions. If I could have only one bike though, it would be Ti, but then remember, I came from a "steel" world !!
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DGauthier
new member
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 21
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Good point. Note that the main issue here is durability, however.
Please, re-read CharlesF's and my posts. CharlesF talks about chips in carbon fiber causing major failures (they can!), and wonders whether "a tip over or something of that magnitude" would cause problems. I referred to a "chip, scuff or gouge" on a carbon fork. These are minor mishaps caused by day-to-day use, not severe damage.
That's the issue. You can scrape a steel fork or frame down to the bare metal and not give a second thought as to whether it's safe to ride. Carbon fiber is amazingly strong, but only if it's in pristine condition.
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Tetrafied
new member
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 14
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My Calfee frame cracked as the result of a low-speed (10mph) collision with a street sign. Yes, I know, I should be more careful. The only contact made with the bike was with the handlebars (carbon fiber), which, perhaps ironically, were not damaged. Suffice to say, I was pretty surprised when I found out a little later on the downtube was badly cracked. I thought my bike was history; fortunately, a Calfee can be repaired. I understand this is not true with all carbon fiber frames. I don't think any other material (Ti, Al, Steel) would have been damaged in such a collision. If I'd been on my C'dale, for example, I'd not have had any problem.
I'll grant you that running into a street sign is a pretty unique circumstance. The point is, stuff happens...and if that stuff happens to you, one frame material may hold up better than another. I'd venture, for example, that you could break the rear triangle of a carbon fiber bike by stepping on it hard enough. Try that with any other frame.
I loved and still love my Calfee. It is being repaired (I HOPE) as we speak. It is a beautiful ride with a great feel. I bought a carbon frame knowing that it is more susceptible to damage than other materials, and I'd do it again.
FWIW,
Ethan
aka Tetrafied
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charlesf
new member
Reged: 03/18/04
Posts: 13
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Thanks for all the responses. Seems it ain't cut-and-dried (carbon is a bit unpredictable).
I actually haven't ridden carbon or Ti yet (just steel). A palpable difference betweed the Ti and carbon ride? -- or is it splitting hairs?
I may be able to get a hold of a Calfee for a test ride, but Parlees are a bit more obscure.
Charles
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RDP
captain
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 243
Loc: Kansas
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Those are the three most thought of bicycles in my mind lately. You obviously have great taste in bicycles. FWIW - my anecdotal contribution to this 'durability' thread is my experience with my 91' Look KG 96 carbon bike. I have crashed this bike, treated it poorly, raced it occasionally and it has suffered numerous scratches and probably gouges but it is still functional. Based upon its mileage, history, and anti-carbon propaganda this bike should have imploded by now...Perhaps it will catastrophically fail tomorrow but I do my pre-ride checks and its structural integrity is intact. I raced it in a lowly crit last year and it held up quite well. I jammed up an uphill sprint at the finish and surprisingly the tubes did not separate from the alu lugs and the bottom bracket did not flex causing me to drop my chain (fortunately, I was much lighter then because when I am heavy the bottom bracket does flex and I have dropped a chain or two while riding  ).
IMHO my Calfee is at another level of durability and quality of bike. It is essentially a lugless carbon bike (tetra) with incredible 'road feel' that responds presciently to rider input (disclaimer - It seems that there are two velo ethnicities, as it were, at large; Believers in all things CalfeeDesign and the "I could care less about your gussets sect"---Note that I am in the former group. There is perhaps a third group who enjoy all types of bikes and who do not use euphemistic terms such as 'plastic' when referring to carbon bikes---plastic is a dead giveaway for 'alloy snob'  ).
Sidebar...I became interested in Calfees many year ago because Greg Lemond rode them. He had a great intuition for functional and aesthetically appealing technology (before going the mass production route under the Trek aegis) Yet if accounts are to be believed he still keeps a Calfee (yes, possibly apochryphal but it sounds good)
My only small concern in racing the Calfee is crashing and potentially marring its beautiful finish (hence, you could mitigate this by choosing a 'nude' finish perhaps). I have no concerns about its structural integrity unless it is a substantial crash but then I would be more worried about my own structural integrity then. For long term investment considerations, you have already heard about Calfee's excellent warranty program.
I had an unfortunate experience when I stupidly clipped a pedal in a corner, during 'crit practice' subsequently blowing my rear tire and flipping the bike onto the opposite side. Fortunately, my body buffered the impact because the only contact the bike made with the asphalt was with my two beautiful Record carbon ergo shifters. The ergos both suffered small gouges in their housing and hoods. That should be another thread subject; durability of campy carbon shifters in crashes---now that keeps me awake at night. 
I sincerely believe your choice will be the right one with any of those three bicycles. Best of luck shopping. Those are nice problems to have.
-R
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It is about the bike.....BikeFanClub Forums
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RDP
captain
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 243
Loc: Kansas
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Charles,
Contact Doug at Parleecycles. He should be able to tell you if there are any Parlee demos in your area.
-R
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It is about the bike.....BikeFanClub Forums
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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What happens if I crash it? Is that the real question? Or is the real question what happens with carbon when you're just riding it down the street?
When I hear people deride CF bike reliability they typically ride very expensive ti bikes, some of which cost 50-80% more than my Tetra Pro. Consider the source.
Carbon Fiber is not going to fail just riding it, especially a Calfee. If it does, I guess that's why you've got a 25 year guarantee on it. If it's a crash? I guess I don't go into buying a bike wondering how it might hold up to a crash. Just not one of my criteria. If it is, and it's going to bug you then maybe you should purchase something else...with a CF fork. Right?
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RDP
captain
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 243
Loc: Kansas
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huh??? Perhaps I was unclear or you meant to reply to someone else...I own a tetra-custom and I love it and I have raced it. It is cobalt blue and it is the most beautiful blue bike on this earth. Maybe I am incompetent in using emoticons 
-R
p.s. and I do not own a ti bike (yet)
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It is about the bike.....BikeFanClub Forums
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Quote:
charlesf wrote:
I actually haven't ridden carbon or Ti yet (just steel). A palpable difference betweed the Ti and carbon ride? -- or is it splitting hairs?
Charles
You absolutely can tell the difference! Ride some bikes and decide for yourself. You may get a comfortably ride out of ti, but you don't get it all (the performance: climbing, sprinting, out of the saddle efforts are all better on carbon compared to ti). But don't take my word, what do I know? I'd take aluminum over a ti bike. Try some bikes out.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Sorry RDP, not meant for you...just trying to figure out the real intent of the question being asked in the thread in general.
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RDP
captain
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 243
Loc: Kansas
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Vaxn8r
BTW - since we have similar predilections for Calfee carbon, what kind of ti bikes have you road tested? I would like to know because since you and I appear to have the same ride 'tastes' then I may not like the feel of a ti bike. Does this make sense? I have been eyeballing a Moots but it is unlikely that I will get a chance to road test it in the near future. My wife has a Merlin XL but it is way too small for me. I would hate to throw 3K+ away. Comments?
-R
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It is about the bike.....BikeFanClub Forums
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1centaur
journeyman
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
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Second the emotion on Ti vs. CF ride - Ti is 95% like steel - metal is metal and carbon fiber isn't. It's a weird truth that there exist in this world both people who say you can't tell CF from any other material with a blindfold on and those who think Ti is clearly more forgiving than steel. Go ride over the bumps on your familiar routes - CF is in a different league, though some of the lightest CF coming out now (Orca) is losing its ability to mute vibrations. I have a Ti bike, and tested another, and own two CF bikes - Ti is for bash it around durability, CF is for everything else, IMO. BTW - The only bike I crashed (at 12 mph, on gravel) was my Calfee - not a scratch.
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"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong
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easypedaler
contributor
Reged: 02/08/04
Posts: 149
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I love both my Ti and Carbon bikes. Have been only riding the calfee for about 3 months. The ride qualities are wonderful. But I have to say the same thing about my generic Ti frame. Not as smooth but still a great ride.
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easypedaler
contributor
Reged: 02/08/04
Posts: 149
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predilections.....mean????
Need a dictionary to read this thread
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RDP
captain
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 243
Loc: Kansas
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lol.."got the hots for"
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It is about the bike.....BikeFanClub Forums
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RDP
captain
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 243
Loc: Kansas
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ep,
Do you feel 'road shock' more on your ti, i.e. does it feel different on rough pavement?
-R
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It is about the bike.....BikeFanClub Forums
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easypedaler
contributor
Reged: 02/08/04
Posts: 149
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compare my Ti bike with my calfee, I would say the Ti I feel a bit more of the road. Now the Ti has a carbon fork with AL steerer. The Calfee is an all carbon fork. The Ti is not a harsh ride...not even close. The Ti is bit more of a lively ride.
The calfee just hums along. I feel the road but it just slides beneath me.
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RDP
captain
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 243
Loc: Kansas
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Thanks for the feedback...I have to figure out where I can demo a ti bike locally. I know what you mean about the Calfee. It has a ride like no other.
-R
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It is about the bike.....BikeFanClub Forums
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Max
journeyman
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 69
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Charles,
This the hardest time of the year to get reply back from Calfee, because they are in the peak of their year. However, I had the same concerns back last Dec (the slow time of the year for them according to my LBS) before I ordered my Tetra. I have a couple of e-mails from Craig, I share you related to durability.
I am a very conservative mechanic engineer coming from riding a steel frame for 20 years. I had several technical discussions with Craig before I ordering my Tetra, and I have no doubt I order the right frame for myself. I have ridden well over a 1,000 miles now on my Calfee, and will never look back.
Good luck with your decision, and I hope this helps.
> From: Craig Calfee <craig@calfeedesign.com>
> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:16:27 -0800
> Subject: Re: Bike Frame Recommendations
>
>
> Hi Max,
>
> Our frame is very stiff in torsion yet more comfortable for long hours
> in the saddle. The Serotta is the best of the Ti bikes. He doesn't
> sacrifice stiffness in pursuit of low weight.
>
> Our frames are very durable and they are repairable in the event of a
> crash. We know of one frame that has 125,000 miles on it.
>
> If you like a stiffer frame, you can get the 58 with "extra stiff"
> tubes.
>
> Craig Calfee
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 06:38 PM, Max wrote:
>
>> Craig,
>>
>> I am considering buying one of your Tetra Pro frames. Â I will fit on a
>> standard 58 cm with no head or seat tube extensions needed. Â I need
>> the bike for long distance racing. Â I will be racing in the up coming
>> California Triple Crown Stage Race. Â My weight off-season is 195 lbs.,
>> and  on-season I'm at 180 lbs.  I am in the saddle spinning at 90 rpms
>> most of the time, except for attacks in the mountains and the sprints.
>> Â I also need a frame that will last a long time (15 years plus, my
>> current bike is a 88 Merckx Corsa Extra SLX). Â Components come and go,
>> but the frame I like to keep.
>>
>> How does the torsion and lateral stiffness, vertical compliance,
>> damping and durability of a Calfee Tetra Pro compared to Serotta
>> Legend Ti?
>>
>> Have you done various (strength, shock, life cycle) stress testing on
>> the Tetra Pro? Â If so what were your results?
>>
>> Would you recommend stock Tetra Pro to me base upon my weight and
>> needs, or would you suggest one with a stiffer tube set, etc.?
>>
>> I test rode Tetra Pro, very nice job Craig. Â The ride is great.
Hi Max,
Scratches that would occur in paint would not hurt the frame. A deep
gouge that cuts into the fiber is of more concern. They can be
repaired though.
Paint does protect the frame somewhat, but not against something that
will really gouge it. And it looks scratched up after some years of
abuse. The Nude finish doesn't scratch like paint and looks best after
some time. The nude is easily "freshened up" with the 303 Protectant.
The frames can be re-aligned to a limited extent. I've done a few and
it seems to work. Not sure how they get out of alignment in the first
place.
Craig Calfee
On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 11:38 AM, Max wrote:
> Hi Craig.
>
> Can Tetra Pro sustain scratches and nicks without compromise to the
> structural integrity of the frame?
>
> Which finish gives the frame the best protection?
>
> Can the frame be realigned after production?
>
> Thanks again,
> Max
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MAX
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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RDP,
I own a '92 Litespeed Classic. Not the greatest bike. It was early on in the ti craze and the bike was not super light or really all that comfortable. But at least it was flexy! I always felt disadvantaged trying to climb on it. It still a looker though. Very nice welds and polished finish.
I've ridden a Merlin EL quite a bit and it's in a whole different league than my old Litespeed. If I were to get another ti bike the Merlin EL would be on the short list, probably with a Serotta Legend (only because I've heard people rave about them...plus Craig Calfee likes them). The Merlin did a nice job of soaking up the rough stuff but definitely not as good as the Tetra Pro. In terms of stiffness, no question, the Calfee is stiffer, climbs and sprints feel better. The Calfee is lighter too. I really like the Merlin. The Calfee is a better bike on several levels. The Merlin is maybe only better in terms of it'll last forever. But the Merlin EL costs more.
BTW, no frame is really good at supressing the big bumps. What the Calfee excels at is making chip-seal feel like a well paved road. It really is phenomenal.
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RDP
captain
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 243
Loc: Kansas
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Vaxn8r,
Good feedback...and oh, go ahead and get the Merlin!  And sir, you certainly know the Calfee ride handshake. Smoooooooooth.
thanks,
-R
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It is about the bike.....BikeFanClub Forums
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Don't forget vaxn8r Merlin is no more. Litespeed makes them in TN. None of the Merlin welders made the move just some sales folks.
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easypedaler
contributor
Reged: 02/08/04
Posts: 149
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When did that happen?
Did they just buy them out to get rid of a competitor?
Did the Merlin people go anywhere to start up again under a new Name???
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Yes, I knew that. But I also don't think it's as simple as that. Welders coome and go from a lot of shops unless you're talking one man shows.
Litespeed has done a nice job keeping the philosophies and operations between the two brands separate. Here is a nice review of some of the differences between the brands:
http://www.dirtragmag.com/articles/article.php?ID=293&category=features
As a final note, Spectrum still has Merlin building their ti frames. Tom Kellog has perhaps the highest standards in the industry. If Merlin's good enough for them I figure that's not a bad endorsement.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Easy it was around 3 years ago. I forget exactly when. I think some of the IF people are old Merlin folks but I'm not completely sure. I think I heard that but the brain isn't what it once was.
vaxn8r you are assuming that they are making Tom's frames the same as Merlin, Litespeed, Douglas, Fusion and whatever other brands they are shipping out from there. That is a very big assumption to make. Not all builds are anywhere near equal.
For example my Cannondale is called by Cannondale as a walk through. This means at every critical step of the build there are master people involved building and then others checking. It comes out as one beautiful bike with gorgeous welds, finish work and paint. Cannondale always marketed that Saeco rides production frames and they do. However theirs are a walk through as well. All welds, finishes, paint jobs and such are not created equal out of the same factory.
It is also my understanding from talking with Tom's brother one day that he does a great deal of the finish work on the Ti bike when he gets it. I could be wrong but I think he said that.
In other words the time, effort, and attention to quality control is not always the same. They are a fairly big production US company now. It is nice they build here. The differences in Litespeed models appears to be significant based on reviews I've read so I am sure that they have different build specs and methods for the Merlin's.
I just thought you would want to know, if you did not, that Merlin is really no longer the Merlin of old. I thought it was especially important since you were not a big fan of your Litespeed.
I disagree that welders are disposable commodities and especially for Ti. The difficulty in welding is one of the reasons for the expense of a Ti bike.
I also know that after the purchase and for quite awhile afterwards they were advertising for people to learn welding and join them. Maybe the newbies make the Douglas brand.
If I were buying Ti it would be a Seven. I've never met anyone not as happy with their Seven as Calfee folks are with their bikes. I understand Serotta makes a nice Ti bike however I haven't talked to people that ride them. I know more people on Seven's. 
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