OldEd
contributor
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 117
Loc: The Great South
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That goes without saying. The photos/tapes have destroyed any hope (it was always very remote)that we'll get the Iraqi people on our side.
The question now is, will Bush's boys be smart enought to handle this politically at home? Here's some expensive free advice from a pro: Order ALL photos and tapes released NOW. Fire Rumsfeld in a stuttering rage, on TV. Fire about three levels of general officers. Court martial some colonels.
No possibility the Administration survives this unless Bush looks like he's really grabbing the goat by the horns and twisting its head off.
I was thinking this yesterday while I was resolutely NOT riding my bike again <<<<<< Bike content.
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TJeanloz
new member
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 20
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It's interesting. A lot of people who are hoping that Bush will lose see this as the great fumble that will cost the Presidency. I don't think it will be that dramatic. I just don't see this reaching that far up.
If Rumsfeld had played his cards better, he wouldn't be in peril either - it's really his mishandling of the affair that is damaging, not the affair itself.
I do think that these incidents are particularly damaging to American credibility around the world, not just in the Middle East. Whatever moral authority we thought we had is pretty much shot. The only salve for this is to investigate completely and punish, as harshly as is legal, everybody who had knowledge of these incidents and didn't act to stop them. That may actually serve to build credibility, as it says to the world: we don't expect anybody to be perfect, but there are serious repercussions when anybody (us included) does something abhorrent.
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OldEd
contributor
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 117
Loc: The Great South
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But from what Bush said about Rummy a little while ago -- 'superb' was the key word -- I have my doubts we'll see the kind of massive punishment that will show the world we mean business.
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ColnagoFE
new member
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 22
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The war is lost even if we "win". Some mighty pissed off people over there now. What would winning would even mean? Do we have a clue? Do we even have a good guess at a plausible exit strategy? Will we leave after we set up the next puppet government or will this be a long occupation? I don't have a clue and it doesn't seem like Bush does either.
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OldEd
contributor
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 117
Loc: The Great South
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Those images, and likely worse to come, are burned in the brains of every Arab, and will be in perpetuity.
Bush needs to worry about holding on to AMERICA now. And the only way he'll do that is to seriously kick some neo-con ass and bust out of the service some military brass.
A few low-level courts martial and congratulating Rummy for doing a 'superb job' won't cut it. Even my redneck Free Bird neighbors are disgusted over this, and damn near NOTHING disgusts that crowd.
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TJeanloz
new member
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 20
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I don't think punishment needs to go any higher than culpability. IF Rumsfeld knew of, and condoned, the incidents, he should be fired. But I'd be surprised if that were the case. It could get WAY more interesting if the defense plays the "following orders" card successfully. If this was an institutionalized interrogation procedure (as the Red Cross has said that it believes it was), heads quite far up the chain of command could roll. If, on the other hand, it can be established that it was the actions of rogue/undertrained prison guards, it's much easier to blame the individuals than the system.
Right now, we're at a point where we have an indictment of individual behavior, and that isn't a disaster. An indictment of the system could be catastrophic.
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OldEd
contributor
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 117
Loc: The Great South
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All true. But public opinion on the Arab street doesn't give a fig about where the blame lies. That's the geo-political/military disaster, and it's already happened.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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We have been billing ourselves as a country that takes the high road and leads by example. Now this! I am irate! We have been shamed, dishonored and brought to the level of the worst by this. And, in my mind, the worst thing is that my son, who became a Marine for the noblest of reasons, now has been dishonored merely because he wears a uniform.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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OldEd
contributor
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 117
Loc: The Great South
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Or close enough (Army, not Marines). Listen to me now: Your son has NOT been dishonored. His "leaders" have. His "leaders" are the dishonored.
Believe me, I know what I'm talking about. My brothers from Vietnam made the same sad mistaken assumption you're making, and it took us decades to get past it.
Your son is a patriot, his service is to be cherished.
This is something I know in my bones, and you can believe me just because I'm telling you. It's enough that I'm telling you. Anyone who suggests otherwise can kiss my ass, yours, his, and the collective ass of 150,000 other guys and gals doing their honorable best in that damnable situation.
Be proud, and tell your son to be proud, and tell him to write OldEd if he doubts that.
Christ. I hate this.
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sn69
friend
Reged: 04/03/04
Posts: 28
Loc: San Diego, CA
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I knew that something was afoot over there maybe a couple/days ahead of the media frenzy, although full disclosure has only made it all the more sickening...so much so that it's become more than a passing distraction. It's all we've spoken about at work lately.
(Therein lies an odd irony, the horrors of the deaths and the sodomies notwithstanding, everything else is command practice at SERE school...and with good reason...Saddam's folks did all that AND MORE to our EPWs during GW1. I've personally spoken with Hanoi Hilton survivors, and their stories make others pale by comparison.)
Still, this is a disaster of damned-near inconceivable proportions. One g-dd-mned regiment has now placed the entirety of DOD in far more peril than this little "adventure" over there. And they, as a group, have the audacity to bemoan the rescission of their communal Bronze Star?!?!?!?
Sorry...I'm drifting.
Dave--your son, God/Allah/Budda/Great Spirit bless him, is not dishonored. But please urge him to comport himself with due diligence abroad. Those f__kheads in that regiment have placed him, his brothers in the Navy's short-bus service (sorry...couldn't resist...I'm a squid) and the rest of us in far more peril. Tell him to be careful and to take care of his fellow Marines and Sailors (Zoomies and Doggies are his option).
Ed--thanks. Like I said, this is more troubling in some ways than the blue-on-blue Patiot engagements from March of last year. This is reprehensible, and there's no excuse that can provide allowance for what happened. Not as American servicmen/women who swore an oath unto the death to defend and uphold the principles of the Constitution.
Dammit.
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Scott Needle,
nobody of particular importance
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Sorry guys but you all seemed headed off in the same direction over these pictures, i did look at them as carefully as i could, and to these following conclusions i did arrive.
They all had some form of fuzzyness in them, not one was really crisp and clear.
The images of the persons in the photos looked a bit brighter or duller colourwise compared to the other objects in the same photo.
While i'm not saying that some of the photos might not be actually real, a lot look very suspect to me, and this is a totally unbiased view of mine.
Its really neat what digital imaging can do these days, its a pity that someone chose this medium to show how convincing it can be.
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Its time to ride.
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ColnagoFE
new member
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 22
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I think they are real. Likely taken at the orders of the CIA spooks for psyops purposes. I imagine they were pretty effective in getting new prisoners to talk. Not condoning them by any means, but I can see why they were taken. CIA spooks who may have been behind this all will plead immunity and vanish into the woodwork. Everyone else will likely have plausible deniability and this investigation will never get anywhere. Likely a few low-ranking officers will take the fall and be made an example of.
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Continental
new member
Reged: 02/10/04
Posts: 5
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Allan, the huge problem is that any doctored photo is now believable. 3 months ago if you would have shown me a photo of female U.S. soldier leading around a naked, hooded prisoner on a leash I would have thought it was a fake. Sadly, now I can't conceive of any photo that I would dismiss.
I supported this war from the beginning. I never envisioned these types of actions by our soldiers, but maybe that's due to my ignorance and naivete. Maybe war decision making needs to include the probability that atrocities will occur and be will be made public. If I knew what to do from here, I wouldn't be a chemical engineer.
Hi to all you erstwhile RBR's. I've been registered a long time and do lurk, but the spirit has never moved me to post.
I built up a new ride this winter. A 1980 Raleigh Competition with Rivendell philosphy--Suntour barcons, Nitto Technomic stem, Brooks saddle, 28 mm tires, Suntour Cyclone long reach sidepulls, Sugino XD Pro Crankset 48-36-24 giving a granny gear that can get even me up any mountain.. Everything, including the frame, was new or NOS. I'm having a great time on it, but I feel like I should send a check to Grant Peterson for the intellectual property.
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PdxMark
new member
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 5
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A few months ago I overhauled my wife's old college Raleigh 10-speed for her to use as an in-town errand bike. Getting back on the Raleigh after using her nicely fitted Landshark for a couple years she realized that the old Raleigh is probably two sizes too big.
So I Rivendelled the Raleigh.
The steep rise of the Nitto Dirtdrop quill stem moved her bars up and back so she wasn't so stretched out over the top tube. Then, so that she wouldn't have to reach way down to the downtube shifters, I added te Dia-Tech Bar-end Shifter Mounts for the existing Campy shift levers and a Clamp-on Down Tube Cable Stop. It's now much more comfortable for her and, with raising the seat a few inches, any 6'2" tall friends can ride it too.
As for the thread at hand, the damage to our standing in the Middle East caused by the photos is enormous. With the subsequent reports trickling out, we will have a major credibility gap for quite awhile.
The polls about this are interesting and reflect a little detail I've noticed before. The 25%-30% who think the photos are no big deal exemplify a typical 25%-30% hard-core base at each end of the political spectrum. Whenever there is a topic with widespread consensus or support, you can often find a 25%-30% core, liberal or conservative, that is at odds with the super-majority. In this case, the 25%-30% points to the convervative core. In other situations it's the liberal core. This also shows that it's the 50% middle sloshing back and forth that swings things one way or the other.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Allan: Regardless of whether the photos are doctored or real is of no importance. What IS important is that the Arab world believes them. We are skrewed! Any progress we may have made in the Middle East has been lost. Back to square one and start over.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Dave, i firmly believe that the war is a just cause but over time things have got disgustingly out of hand due to everyone getting their fingers into the pie.
Well to me reality strikes hard and fast and to be honest the Arabs dont like westerners anyway, but they certainly like to use the products we make, so go figure.
To be honest i'd have to say that to the average Arab man in the street in Iraq, progress in their eyes is to kill as many foreign soldiers as they can.
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Its time to ride.
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rnhood
friend
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 38
Loc: NC
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We are beginning to see the true character of people now. And, it is disturbing. I don't mean to your local street corner preacher but, the degradation of morals and principles in our world is the primary reason for the decline in humanity. And it will continue.
I supported the war too but, the intelligence error on the WMD was a sad hit to our cause. There were still good reasons to topple this dictator. Unfortunately Bush Sr got to Iraq then stopped. Bush Jr. went into Iraq and then stopped. Neither one finished the job. You just can't carry on a good will campaign and fight a war with the same people today.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Ok so here we go again, now the radicals are using heads (no pun intended) to prove a point, how gruesome is this new video to watch.Now this is really sickening and you know whats so pathetic about this situation, all the people behind the reason why we have troops over there in the first place are just going to try and patch this up with some really disgusting excuse,,,,again.
Its time for less talk and lots of radical action...after all the peaceful approach is not working, and it seems these radicals like it radical, so use force and lots of it too, the time for talking is OVER, finish the job quickly and lets go home. 
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Its time to ride.
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OldEd
contributor
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 117
Loc: The Great South
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The bike sounds fantastic!
Great to see you here, by the way.
Edited by OldEd (05/12/04 12:46 PM)
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OldEd
contributor
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 117
Loc: The Great South
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Great to see you over here! Post lots and help get this board humming!
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PdxMark
new member
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 5
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I had stopped my noncycling RBR visits because it just got too acrimonious there for me. It used to be interesting to hear what the other side thought about things. It sometimes even changed what I thought about things. But there's not much thought coming from the other side there these days...
So I reverted to just cycling topics when I saw you peek in to RBR. I looked back here and saw your post about creating multiple personalities and chuckled again about our echange a year ago or so.
So, is there any validity to the 25%-30% solid liberal/conservative cores that seem to appear in some polls?
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OldEd
contributor
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 117
Loc: The Great South
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As far as the left-right hardnut, I think your figures are a little high. I think supercommitted lefties are down to around 20 percent or less these days. I doubt the supersolid right is much more than that, although it may reach into the low 20s.
I'm not talking 'self-identified' righties and lefties. Self identification is meaningless. Hell, 70 percent of the country will ID itself as 'conservative.' (The last two people standing who'll say they're liberal is me and Al Franken, and he's an idiot).
No, I mean when it comes right down to specific issues, where does that person stand? The two extremes are faily small.
What people forget, and Bill Clinton in his political genius never did, is that the center is HUGE in this country, and no matter how an indiviodual self-IDs, chances are he's a moderate on the issues.
Bush (Rove) recognizes that too. That's why he's going to be so hard to beat. He's successfully put a veneer of moderation on his hard-right agenda, and tons of people don't see past that.
Edited by OldEd (05/12/04 04:54 PM)
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DuaneGran
new member
Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 2
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Politically speaking, Bush would pay more price by firing Rumsfeld. The last thing he wants to do is have to put a new defense secretary in front of the Senate, where the whole Iraq war will be under scrutiny by extension. Unless the replacement would be confirmed by a wide majority, it would look like Bush has little support for the war effort. He will avoid this spectacle at all costs, just short of having to take the heat himself.
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