Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Having seen the new D/A 10 speed crankset when it first became available, i was impressed by a few things and shocked by quite a few as well.
The design looks very clean and highly polished, but if it lives up to Shimanos past finishes, it will not be looking as good in about a year, since their clear coating does not stand up well when compared to the Italian offerings.
The pressed in right side axle looks cool, but in truth the torque and twisting taking place here in this area could cause some design issues,i'll wait and see if there are any. I personally would have preferred to see a splined right side and fixing bolt junction.
The inside of the spider arms looks waaaaay thin,as well as the BB axle, and im really concerned here, just how strong is this??? can it have a long life???
This unit is very light,(axle and right spider/arm combo unit)almost paper light, when you compare it to the left side arm.
On the inside of the large chainring showed where the face of the milling tool had scrolled as they had removed material to thin out the ring, a bit of sloppy work compared to the beautiful machining that is apparent everywhere else.
I personally like the concept Shimano have here, its just that i dont like how they went about it.
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Its time to ride.
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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Shimano's DA 7800 crank design has been available on Shimano's mtn bike group for at least a year now. So the concept has already been durability-tested under conditions far more extreme than the road environment.
I'm a 210+ lb sprinter with 30-inch thighs who destroys equipment regularly simply by ripping it apart. For example, I once tacoed a D/A cassette (exploded into 5 pieces) just by riding up my steep driveway. I was never able to use the D/A 7700 BB, it was too dinky and I could blow one apart in a month or two. I used to use an Ultegra BB with D/A cranks since I use 180 mm cranks (Ultegra isn't available in 180). I can feel a huge difference in the overall stiffness between the old BB / crank assembly and the 7800's better-integrated design. The 7800 is way more solid, plus it doesn't squeak, tick, creak, and snick the way the old splined one did, no matter how often I lubed and adjusted it.
I am the first to criticize bad design or poor execution, but I simply love the 7800 crankset. I replaced the cranks on my Serotta Legend Ti with the 7800, and I loved it so much that I subsequently did the same with my 2004 Vortex, which had 7700 cranks with < 1000 miles on them.
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Mr Skunk,
Are you using the 7800 cranks with a 9 speed drivetrain?
Do Tell! I would love to replace my crankset and keep the rest of the 7700 stuff if it all works right together.
Thanks,
Mike
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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Mike:
Yes. Not only am I using the 7800 cranks with a 9-speed drive train, I'm using them with a 9-speed XTR rear derailleur!
The road in front of my house is the toughest paved climb in the world (Haleakala Volcano - sea level to 10,000 feet in 30 miles), so _serious_ gearing is a necessity. I used to use the Ultegra or D/A triple, but about two years ago I chucked all my triples and switched to a conventional road setup with an XTR rear derailleur and an 11/32 cassette. Works like magic!
On my Serotta Legend Ti, I've got a full D/A 7700 setup except for the 7800 cranks and the XTR rear DR. On my Litespeed Vortex, I've got a full Ultegra setup except for the 7800 cranks and the XTR rear DR. So I can safely state, from firsthand experience, that the spiffy 7800 D/A cranks work just fine with both the 9-spd Ultegra and the 9-spd D/A.
Aloha,
TMS
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
Edited by TheMightySkunk (05/19/04 05:37 AM)
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Thanks... I too am using an XTR derailuer with an XT cassette. I'd like to think its because the hills around here are too steep, but its mostly because my legs are too weak.
What type of chain are you running? A guy your size must shred shimano chains daily.
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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Mike:
You ask very poignant questions. Sounds like you've busted a few components yourself.
I used to use Ultegra chains, which were fairly decent on durability. I would pop a chain once or twice a year. Then I made the mistake of switching to Wipperman stainless chains for about 3 months. BAD idea. They looked cool and required almost no maintenance, which is an issue around here because we ride through cloudbursts so much in Hawai'i due to our microclimates. I broke Wippermans on a weekly basis, to the point where I started carrying a chain tool around in my seat pack. One day, after yet another Wipperman catastrophe forced me to (literally) walk home, three miles uphill (1000 feet vertical) in my bike shoes, wheeling my chainless Litespeed Ultimate beside me, I stormed in the front door, tore the Wippermans off all my bikes, and threw them all in the trash can.
Then I discovered SRAM. I'm a big fan of using mtn bike stuff on the road where possible, because it's usually on the tough end of the durability spectrum. For example, I use Thomson posts and stems, which are a little heavy but are as bomb-proof as anything on the market. At the time of my Wipperman catharsis, I had recently bought a couple of SRAM 11/32 cassettes and liked them, so I ordered a couple of hollow-pin SRAM chains and gave them a try. This was in December, and I haven't had the slightest hint of a problem with the SRAM chains since I installed them. Five months without a chain failure is a record for me, so I'm sold on SRAM chains.
I sure wish SRAM made more road stuff, because everything of theirs I've tried has been durable, reasonably priced, and well-engineered. Plus, I like to buy American when possible, since I do a lot of business abroad and get crapped on constantly for being an American (it's not an accident that I own all American-made stuff: a Serotta, a Litespeed, and a Ritchey, with Topolino and American Classic wheelsets and Speedplay pedals). I looked into using SRAM rear derailleurs instead of an XT or XTR with my road group, but unfortunately they're not compatible with Shimano road shifters (or any shifters other than SRAM).
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Mighty Skunk,
Well I have actually busted a chain, but only on our tandem. Going up a hill in the San Juan Islands - Pop - Dura Ace chain goes flying. Reconnected it with a SuperLink three, Kahuna's Favorite and 5 minutes later we ripped the SuperLink apart.
Switched to SRAM as well, and haven't had a problem since. I'm not big enough to break a chain on my road bike, but I have found that the Shimano chains are worn out by about 1000-1200 miles. I have at least that much on the SRAM (on the tandem) and it looks like new. I suspect it will last almost forever on my road bike.
Thanks for the info on the crank, I think I'm gonna go for it.
Mike
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audissix
friend
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 25
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Mighty Skunk, would mind commenting on the Topolino wheels? I need a new set of wheels for a new bike I am building up and am torn between a set built by Joe Young, Speed Dreams or Topolinos. Thanks
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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Topolinos?
Love 'em. As far as I'm concerned, they're the best wheel you can buy at any price. Stinko light, fantastic feel, reasonably durable for an ultra-light wheel, fabulously cushy ride due to the soft spoke material, yet torsionally very stiff. Great in crosswinds, yet quite aero. They look cool, too.
I have thrashed the living crap out of my Topos and didn't have to get them trued for the first 6 months I owned them. No other trick wheel (Rolf, HED, Spinergy) has stayed in one piece for me beyond a few months, or stayed true for more than a few weeks. The only other wheels I've tried that have lasted are my American Classic Deep-V's, which are plain-Jane ultra-heavy-duty training wheels with 28 / 32 spokes.
A word of caution, however. I have one pair of Topos and they have been wonderful. Two of my teammates, who are both way lighter than me and significantly easier on equipment, both have had repeated troubles getting the hubs adjusted properly. Those two guys are also the two best wrenches on the team (better than me). One guy had to send his back to the factory for a rear hub replacement, and the other had to send his back TWICE. Maybe I just got lucky, maybe Topo has quality-control problems and I happened to get a good set.
Which brings up my final point. If you want to go light and / or aero with wheels, sooner or later, you're going to need factory support. The guys at Topo have been great about answering questions, supplying spare parts, and factory-rebuilding wheelsets at a reasonable price. Other companies (uuuuh.....anybody heard of Spinergy?) aren't so great at that. Spinergy customer support, for example, just plain sucks. I will NEVER buy another Spinergy product, and if I ever meet anybody from Spinergy at a race, I'm going to punch him right in the nose.
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Hi Skunk,
I'd have to agree with you on the problematic wipperman 10 speed S/S chain, as after only about 300 miles my chain was stretched to an alarming level. Needless to say i went back to my Record C10, but thats also now died, however it took a while to do it,so its safe to say that around 2000 miles lifespan is a lot for any 10 speed chain thats made well.
I wish SRAM would make a 10 speed chain, as i'd buy one in a flash, their products have always been made well in my opinion and very durable, all the old (SRAM) Sachs Sedisport 8 speed ones i had were excellent performers and worked well.
I never broke a chain however, but i've bent the teeth on the large chainring so that they all lay on a slight angle, and this was not from using a stretched chain.
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Its time to ride.
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audissix
friend
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 25
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Mightyskunk, thanks for your review of the Topos. Still undecided if I should go with the more conventional wheels being built by Joe Young and weighing about 1500 g or the Speed Dreams weighing about the same. The Topos are about $200-300 more expensive as well. BTW- did you know that the guy that started and owns Topolino is a former Spinergy employee or owner? He was the designer of the Rev-X.Thanks again.
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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Audissix:
Yes, Rafe and Steve both used to work for Spinergy, as I understand it.
A few years ago I suffered a near-crippling back injury, and the Spinergy Xaero was the only wheel with enough shock absorption to allow me to continue to ride. So I _had_ to either use Spinergy or take up shuffleboard. But now that there's an alternative, Spinergy is in my rearview mirror, because they have zero customer service.
Whenever I had a problem with Spinergys, I had to basically throw them away and buy a new pair. Hopefully Spinergy will be in bankruptcy soon, as they well deserve.
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Hey Skunk,
Spinergy zero service?? well partially but i found them to be reasonably ok for parts, although pricey. My last version SR 3s work well and have the italian Fir rims fitted as OEMs, trouble is the wimpy rear wheel spoke combo radial/crossed, no matter how much i tightened them would rub the brakes on hard accelerations, especially up hills.
My solution was to replace the rear hub, in my case with a Record 10, paint it black to match the front, and respoke it crossed both sides,now it works MUCH better.Hmmmm now its a Campy/Spinergy. 
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Its time to ride.
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