Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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One of my shops just picked them up. Both Ti and carbon.
http://www.operabike.com/home.php?lang=e
Edited by Nev (05/18/04 07:43 PM)
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1centaur
journeyman
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
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I'll thrill you with a reply, but bore you with the contents.
I've asked this question on another forum a couple of times and the silence has been deafening. I had held a Leonardo at the LBS and thought the clear coat was wonderfully deep, but nobody's ever ridden one who is willing to post. Along the way, I realized the Leonardo uses aluminum lugs, and I don't see the need to go back in that technological direction. You should also read the competitivecyclist site to make note of the saddle to bar drop issue. Ultimately, I felt that frame is overpriced and under-ridden, but I look forward to hearing why I'm wrong.
Finally, the same LBS as above has sold a Leonardo to a customer who also has a C-40 and a C-50, and that guy told them the Leonardo rode the best of all of them. FWIW.
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"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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1centaur,
Thanks.
I've gone from banging my head against nice wood and switched to concrete on this freaking road bike purchase. Horrible. I've been wanting to buy a bike from this small but exceptional shop for a long time. But they never had my flavor in mountain bikes. They've been very good to me. Now they're getting in the sweet road bikes. They'll have the Operas in shop very soon. (The Palladio is what I was pondering most -- heard anything on that?) They've also picked up IF, but something to test will be even longer. They have the Cannodales ready to go. I've moslty been on the ti side of the fence, but going to ride some more carbons this weekend.
The one thing I'm realizing is that at some point I need to close my eyes and pick one with all the choices out there. Was hoping with the Opera, or maybe a Cannondale Six13 (carbon, I know) I could give it to them. Picking this too-good bike is the worst I've been through in a long time.
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1centaur
journeyman
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
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If you need to test ride and you must go with that shop, your options are limited, as you have said (though not one of those bikes is likely to be bad, nor is it likely to be the last bike after which you lust (trust me, I've got a few downstairs and few more in my head!)).
If you don't need the test ride and do know your fit, the margin you can give the shop on the parts and the build should be way more than enough - frame margin is not always that high. Then you can pick a frame that makes you happy.
You just need to make a good choice, not the best possible choice on the planet. Color really counts 
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"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong
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dbrk
contributor
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
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Operas are Pinarellos with different tubing and paint. You can think that the tubing would be the most significant difference in a ride but it is far more likely that geometries, wheels and tires, and your fit are the keys. In other words, to get a bead on the Operas ride a modern Pinarello since they are geometry-wise identical. Opera was, of course, conceived to lengthen the breadth of Pinarello's interest in tubing and to compete, at least a bit, in the realms of carbon and titanium (with...aaaahem [make faux gagging noises]...Colnago and DeRosa). My experience with Pinarellos is that they front ends require serious attention: these are race bikes without much hint of relaxing from the task of riding (some might call that a fast or even twitchy front end, I think "fast" is less derrogatory in connotation). Anyway, that's what I would do. Pinarello is not spending huge bucks to work on their carbon or ti bikes and, imho, all the major-brand American ti bikes are superior to anything made in Europe tube-wise and weld-wise, so you are again buying the geometry (whether it be Pinarello or otherwise). If you like the way certain Eurpopean bike makers design their ride, then you're good to go. As for carbon, whatever they make in Europe is one thing but a slew of Euro makers source in Taiwan or _also_ in Taiwan. There is nothing wrong with that, as such, but you are buying a certain way of designing and presenting a bike, not the romance of a small shop with an oldworlde craftsman laboring---no matter what the Italians would like you to believe.
For carbon from Europe I would look at Fondriest, though I get sticker shock. For ti, I would look down this Bike Fan Club to IF, Serotta, Spectrum, Merlin, Strong, or Moots. I would rather have any one of those to any European made titantium---none of which is sourced from the best makers of titanium, all of which are from the U.S., this being a long standing fact in the bike industry. The best US makers source from the far more expensive American sources of titanium because they must compete with one another in quality of tubing issues, not just price.
There is not one thing "wrong" that I have heard about Opera bikes. They are Pinarellos using other tubes. That should at least help you get the fit squared away. The rest is personal preference and in that respect I say simply, knock yerself out and buy what spins your wheels.
dbrk
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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All your answers are only making this whole process horrific for me.;)
I know I'm asking endless little questions, but I really do appreciate all the insight.
IF, Serotta, Spectrum, Merlin, Strong, or Moots seem to be the bottom line on the -- good -- Ti stuff. Interesting, to me, the uninformed, how rapidly Litespeed falls out of the picture the more I learn and look into things.
I set out knowing I'm going to spend more than I deserve, but the prices for the above stuff are eye opening and really pushing me out. I have 3k ready to go, and was figuring any above that an irrational dump to the card or whatever, maybe another 1k or so? All the frames above start over 3k. Most without a fork. Add a premo set of wheels and premo drive train, which I want, I'm well over 4k.
The Strong stuff is definately in the ball park. But it's a purchase sight unseen (Right phrase there?), or unfelt. Everyone says ride, ride, ride, but even here in a big city like Dallas there ain't much on the floors. Even shops that say they carry stuff like Serrota don't have anything in, or maybe a frame up on the wall. There's a local ti builder here call Legend bikes. (www.legendbicycles.com). Haven't ridden one yet, but the ones I've seen, the tubes look small, or thin, or scientific terms, not that big around. But what do I know? I've heard the bottom bracket is flexy, too. I know there are other builders. Whatever I go with, I'll be more comfortable with something that has a national reputation, not just regional or local.
Thoughts on above?
Serious question: I'm 6' and 185 - 190lbs. Any special considerations here?
Also, riding style: More often than not, I ride as fast and hard as I can the whole time. So I'm not out to be cruising. Although that will be part of the picture. Riding hard -- as I can -- is what's most fun for me.
Again,
Thanks for all the insight,
Nev
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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I don't think Litespeed "falls out of the picture". Litespeed does, however, make about 30 different models, and a lot of them are middle-market.
Don't expect a Litespeed Sienna or Classic to compete with a Serotta Legend Ti in too many areas of performance. Just look at the cost. However, the top-end Litespeeds (Ultimate, Vortex, Blade) are no-compromises balls-to-the-walls racing machines that are as good or better than anything out there.
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
Edited by TheMightySkunk (05/22/04 10:18 PM)
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1centaur
journeyman
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
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You are kind of all over the lot with your thoughts (alu, Ti, stiff really counts, don't want to ride sight unseen, don't want to spend over $3,000, want to mash but cruise), which means to me you should either slow down (a tough thing to do this time of year) and really figure out what you care about most, or speed up and buy something good understanding that at NO PRICE will you find a perfect, be all and end all and forever bike, but at $3,000 or so you will be in that 95% of perfection range we end up settling for if you get a good fit and perhaps avoid the flexiest possibilities.
Personally, I believe all $3,000 plus frames are overpriced for their function and the joy they will bring you. I perceive a strong element of price-based marketing in $3,000 Ti frames, especially in non-custom versions.
You could buy a $3,000 frame and slowly add in the other bits as your budget allows, but I bet the final result would be no more enjoyable to ride than a $2,000 frame with good components added. A custom builder like Strong might help talk you through some of the issues, get you fit right and build a frame that's great for you - you won't get to test ride a lot of the frames you are considering anyway, so push past the last hesitations and buy a Six13 if you are fine with alu or a decent priced Ti frame and then start saving for the frame you WILL be buying in 3 or 4 years to give you variety and/or backup.
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"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
1centaur wrote:
You are kind of all over the lot with your thoughts (alu, Ti, stiff really counts, don't want to ride sight unseen, don't want to spend over $3,000, want to mash but cruise), which means to me you should either slow down (a tough thing to do this time of year) and really figure out what you care about most, or speed up and buy something good understanding that at NO PRICE will you find a perfect, be all and end all and forever bike, but at $3,000 or so you will be in that 95% of perfection range we end up settling for if you get a good fit and perhaps avoid the flexiest possibilities.
So true. Yes, I am all over the place. I'm getting to the point of simply jumping in. I rode a Moots on Saturday. It belonged to the shop guy. Very, very nice feel, although...it had a creaking in the bottom bracket, which he warned me about. He said he had ridden through some water recently. I heard it when I stood up going up some little hills.
Also, interestingly, to me, is when I sat up on the thing, taking my hands off the bars, the front/wheel was very unstable. It went side to side. I couldn't balance or ride no hands very easily. On my mountain bike I can sit right up, take a drink, dig in my pockets, whatever and it tracks perfectly. When I rode the first group of bikes a couple weeks ago, I remember one or two of them did the same. The others, no problem hands free sitting up pedaling. I asked a friend who races and he doesn't have any thoughts on this. Said maybe front wheel out of true. Is this a design or componet thing?
I think it's time to stop asking questions, become a real man, take a stand and ride the decision I make. (I might even be leaning back towards a litespeed. Maybe Dave's vanilla Tuscany. Thinking I'm not sophisticated enough -- not until a few years down the road -- to miss what he missed.
Moots nice, but what's with the front end? I rode an Ottrot, too nice, too nice. Same with the Spectrum. I really liked the Vortex, but maybe the Tuscany for my longer "hammering cruising"  rides. Strong looks great, but can't believe everything you see and read on the net. Where am I???
Seriously,
Appreciate all the wisdom given. I'll try to keep the questions sharp and specific from here on out.
Thanks,
Nev
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1centaur
journeyman
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
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Front wheel oscillation is an interesting topic - there was a scientific post on this on the Bicycling forum a few weeks ago that said BETTER aligned frames are more likely to get it and that relieving pressure (i.e., you) from the saddle would eliminate the harmonic vibration that causes it. I get it on my Orbea but on no other bike; others have reported it on all sorts of bikes - there is nothing in the geometry of the Moots to suggests it's inherent, but I do think it's a disqualifier if hands free is important to your ride - other wheels, other tires, different frame, might solve it, who knows, but you'd have to have the right to return the frame if it gave you that response and you could not work around it. Others may have alternative theories, and NO bike you are looking at is automatically immune, but in my experience it's rare.
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"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Not to throw too many logs onto the fire... but if you are looking for bang for the buck without necessarily the best/zootiest name but maybe 98%-100% of the performance...I would strongly consider a Lemond ti "Victoire" (I think that's what it's called). I saw one of these recently as a 2003 clearance in my size for $2,200 built up with Bontragers and Ultegra. I did not ride it but have talked to some who have. So far I've only heard positives. I know one Cat 1 racer who rides the Lemond ti/carbon and he absolutely loves it.
I thought the welds looked good and the graphics were classy and understated. It was a matte finish which was not my preference. Depending on how it rode, for $2,200 I'd jump at that versus $3-4K, or more, for a frameset, probably without fork, which arguably will perform no better...knowing that a Serotta Legend can be engineered with about as stiff a BB as you'll find in ti....but is that really why people buy ti?
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
vaxn8r wrote:
I would strongly consider a Lemond
Yea, actually Lemond was/is on my list of ponderings. The TĂȘte de Course looks sweet. Haven't ridden it though. Unfortunately, I have a bit of an alergy to Lemond due to an assocation with an individual who likes them a lot. Not fair to Lemond, or me. But as I said, there is not much rational about my decision process. That will come on the last day.
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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The Lemonds seem to be a nice value. However, beware their slightly funky geometry. The slack seat tube angles aren't for everyone, and you'll almost surely have to ride a frame one size smaller than your previous bike.
We had a guy out here in Maui for a year who is a top national racer. When he went back East and joined Snow Valley, he had a helluva time fitting himself onto the team's Lemonds. Personally, I like the slack seat tube angle, but a lot of people don't.
Lemonds are also pretty wimpy in terms of flex, so if you're a larger guy, beware of that aspect, too.
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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ColnagoFE
new member
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 22
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Moots sometimes have strange geometries. Some can be really twitchy. Personally I'd choose another manufacturer for a road bike because I like a more relaxed, stable geometry for my style of riding. If I was doing lots of crits this might be a great bike.
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