Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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I'm in the market for my first high-end roadie machine. One of my shops just started carrying them.
Any thoughts, advice will be most appreciated.
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Bobby
new member
Reged: 12/28/03
Posts: 5
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Do you mean the Operabike line, or the Pinarello Opera ?
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
Bobby wrote:
Do you mean the Operabike line, or the Pinarello Opera ?
Sorry for the late reply.
I meant the OperaBike line, which I understand (correctly?) is an offshoot or whatever from Pinarello. A shop who's served me well but I've never bought a bike from just picked them up. But I found an 02 Litespeed Vortex, so I'm set for now. Still interested in you have any insight though.
Thanks,
Nev
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Bobby
new member
Reged: 12/28/03
Posts: 5
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Hello Nev,
I own a model year 2000 Opera Leonardo painted in the blue color scheme.
It rides like a Pinarello Prince that has a carbon main triangle. The top tube, down tube, and seat tube are carbon so you get a little bit of that woody carbon ride. Everything else, the fork, head tube, bottom bracket and rear triangle are from the proven Pinarello Prince. The BB and chain stays are aluminum. The HT is aluminum. The seat stay is a carbon monostay. The fork is the Vola from the Prince. It is full carbon with a 1-1/8" steerer. The HT has an integrated headset. The fork and the integrated headset are the best parts of the frame, because they flow together and look so cool.
Because it handles exactly like a Pinarello Prince, it is a very fun bike to ride. The Prince is known for its harsh aluminum ride, but the carbon tubes on the Leonardo mute the ride quite nicely. I often take the Leonardo on century rides and it is almost as comfortable as my titanium long-distance bikes. But, because the main triangle is carbon, the bike is very laterally and torsionally stiff, probably more so than the Prince.
After about 6,000 miles I noticed some hairline cracks where the carbon tubes are bonded over the aluminum spigots which are welded to the aluminum lugs. I inspected the hell out of these hairline cracks and I even did a magnified white-light inspection with our composites technical expert at work. The lugs on this frame are heavily faired with paint filler (bondo), all the transitional surfaces are blended very smoothly for beauty. For example, the aluminum welds are heavily smoothed and bondo is used to blend them into the aluminum spigots, and then the bondo flows over the lap joint where the carbon tube is joined to the aluminum spigot.
So there is a heck of a lot of bondo over the lap joint where the carbon tubes are epoxied to the aluminum lugs. We all came to the conclusion that the hairline cracks are in the bondo. Indeed, the hairline cracks haven't even broken through the clearcoat. The hairline cracks first appeared after I finished a century ride on the first really hot day (+90 def F) of a cycling season. So we think the hairline cracks were formed due to simple expansion after the bondo had aged a couple of years. If you epoxy a carbon tube over an aluminum spigot, feather it out heavily with bondo and paint it, then load it and twist it and subject it to expansion/contraction, etc, if you don't see some hairline cracks in the bondo it would be a miracle.
In any event, I am still riding the Leonardo and the cracks haven't increased in size or even broken through the clearcoat. A very nice ride, as much fun as a Pinarello Prince but with a much smoother ride, and the bike is a real conversation piece.
That's the story of my 2000 Opera Leonardo.
Bobby
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Bobby you sound like myself with your close visual checking of what appeared at first to be the beginning of a failure to the frame in relation to the hairline cracks.
I'm amazed that the manufacturer would even go the time wasting labour intensive route of working with all that filling material just to achieve a 'clean' looking joint. With a bike maker such as Pinarello, they should surely have better ways of putting these things together that would save time and money.
I was going to buy a Prince or an Opera frame some while ago, but the delivery cost to me in the end was really pretty close to that of a Moots Vamoots Ti frame, so i went with that instead.
I still like to look at the Pinarellos when i see them, but i'm not going to own one anytime soon.Cracks optional???
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Its time to ride.
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1centaur
journeyman
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
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I wonder if the Six13 uses a much different system to join the aluminum lugs to the carbon tubes. Reviews say that transition is seamless - perhaps that is more so cosmetically (especially brand new) than structurally. Given the issues with alu/carbon contact, I wonder if there is a way to join them both without worry AND with great cosmetics.
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"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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1centaur
One way to find out for sure is to buy both frames and cut them open to inspect the lugmanship, if such a word can be used, OR buy both frames and try to trash them by riding like Gilberto Simoni in the Giro.
In the end however, anything that is glued together is going to have a weak spot eventually somewhere with the passage of time. It all comes down to the manufacturer with the best warranty to cover this type of problem when it arises.
The way i see it theres probably some eccentric biker scientist somewhere working on a fusion technique to make carbon tubes adhere to aluminum lugs without any glue involved.....not!!!!!!!!
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Its time to ride.
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Bobby
new member
Reged: 12/28/03
Posts: 5
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I was thinking exactly the same thing about the Six13, I wonder what type of joint is used on it. I have yet to eyeball a Six13 in person, I am looking forward to seeing one in the flesh.
I can tell you the type of joint that Opera now uses on their Leonardo frames. On my frame the ends of the carbon tubes are gently coped so that they approximately mate-up with the lugs. I know this because the ends of the carbon tubes are traced out by the hairline cracks. The ends of the carbon tubes run with the welds, and the tube ends just before the welds.
On the later and current-model Leonardo frames, the ends of the carbon tubes are perpendicular to the tube, and the ends form a rabbet joint with the aluminum spigot. This new rabbet joint is exactly the same as was used on those old Trek three-carbon-tube, aluminum-lugged frames. You can see a line of demarcation where the carbon tube rabbets into the aluminum spigot. Now on the Opera Leonardo this rabbet joint is very well masked with opaque paint that is feathered-out to the beautifully tinted clearcoat that reveals the carbon weave. But nevertheless, the joint has now become part of the aesthetics of the frame in the same way that the joint was apparent on those old Trek three-carbon-tube frames. You can run your fingers along the carbon tubes near the lugs and feel the joint. Hairline cracks would be less noticeable or ignored in this type of joint just like cracks are less noticeable and ignored in concrete expansion joints.
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I hold Moots in the highest possible esteem. Moots is the Richard Sachs of titanium bikes, they make every bike to perfection. I have a Moots Psychlo-X that is flawless, dead-nuts straight and perfectly aligned. I love the fact that Moots will spot-face the inside of the dropouts, if necessary, to make them perfectly parallel. The perfection of Moots is exponentially proportional to the marketing and hype of Seven Cycles. The labor at Moots makes the labor at Seven Cycles look like an affirmative action program for the ego-afflicted. But I digress.
A Vamoots is currently #1 on my lust list. I would take a Vamoots over an Opera Leonardo any day, because the Vamoots is made so well, it is not an object of style and fashion, it will never grow old and become useless, and you will never get tired of it. Viva Vamoots!
Edited by Bobby (06/05/04 03:13 AM)
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Bobby again you are spot on in your observations of the old three tube Treks and new Pinarellos, you have done some good indepth investigations.
Ah yes the Moots, you refer to a bike frame that all others should be judged by, the quality of construction and attention to detail is phenominal, its almost like they are being made in another world of total perfection,these frames do it all and then more, for a rider who is fortunate enough to ride or own one.
The Moots dropout alignment is so accurate that if i happen to query a rear wheels alignment,i check it in my Moots to see just how even it really is. Once it fails that test, and it usually does, i correct its dish in the Moots and then ADJUST the dropouts slot angle or depth in the suspect frameset so the Moots tested wheel now falls 100% perfectly dead centre.
How cool is that, those guys in Colorado are on the ball.
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Its time to ride.
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