wwt
new member
Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 2
Loc: MA
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Am getting ready to negotiate with spousal unit on custom ti bike  -- hoping this will help relieve low back pain. Have heard that Shimano is releasing Ultegra 10 spd this fall, and am wondering whether I should wait for that, or save some bucks & pull 9 spd stuff off my current ride. (DA 10 is both too pricey, and way better than I'll ever be... Heck, same could be said of Ultegra, but gotta put something on the bike, right?)
My specific questions:
- any idea how long Shimano will continue to make 9 spd parts?
- for DA 10 users, has drivetrain wear been noticeably worse than DA 9 (or Campy 10 spd, for that matter)?
Thanks.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Hello WWT,
If i were you and Ultegra 10 is coming out as soon as you say, i'd put it on the bike because D/A 10 is really a bit overpriced, and Ultegra 10 can and will do just as good a job.
Now to your other questions,how long will Shimano continue to make 9 speed parts?? well if their past record on 'old' technology is anything to measure by, it will be out of here for sure in about another 2 to 3 years.
From my experience i really cant say that 9 speed has shown to be any more durable than 10 speed with either manufacturer. However its certain that the narrower 10 speed chain can and will wear out a bit quicker than the slightly wider 9 speed chain, so changing the chain as required before it damages anything else, cog teeth etc, will ensure you maximum life out of the other drivetrain parts.
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Its time to ride.
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RichardA
new member
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 10
Loc: upstate NY
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Don't they maintain old technology inventory until yesterday?
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Many of the places I look for component bargains have already stopped selling DA-9 components. The big webtailers have raised the prices subtantially. Although I think Shimano may make the stuff for some time, it doesn't look like it will be much cheaper than DA-10.
mike
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TheMightySkunk
journeyman
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 82
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I talked to my friend who works in the racing department @ Shimano. He said 10-spd Ultegra will be released with the 2005 model year stuff. He said 9-spd DA and Ultegra will be "gradually phased out". Hmmmmm. I'd love to know if "gradually" means over a period of a year or a decade!
Sounds like 10-spd mtn bike stuff is not in the cards, because the mtn stuff takes much more of a beating (mud, for example), and the 10-spd tolerances are too tight for the extra environmental problems.
This product plan sort of leaves me out in the cold, because I use a 9 spd road setup with XTR rear derailleur and an 11/32 XTR cassette. I found this works much better than the road triple groups. When the time comes that I can no longer find 9-spd shifters, I guess I'll either have to go back to triples, or go to a "compact" crankset w/ 10-spd road setup w/12-27 cassette, or else sell my bikes and take up golf.
Or I suppose I could move from this 10,000 foot volcano on which I live and return to South Florida, where you only need maybe two gear ratios and one chain ring.
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"I haven't failed. I've just managed to find 100,000 ways that don't work"
--Albert Einstein
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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And the worst part about it Skunk is that the Ultegra will work just as good as the super expensive D/A at probably close to half the price,,,,,,dont you just love how Shimano makes you continually spend and spend and spend.
I can bet that the 'gradually phased out' plan is going to be that the old 9sp Ultegra and D/A will not be available for 2006 at the latest, lets wait and see.
So to complete the equation you need to either do one or more of the following three things, One,demolish the volcano, thats a big job, Two,buy some Campy stuff, good decision, or Three, move back to Florida, another good decision.
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Its time to ride.
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Rippin
friend
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 30
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2005 Ultegra?...
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Well Allan you join Shimano from the Trek folks. It seems that you enter categories just to make trouble. In the Trek forum you diss Trek's and claim that Postal rides disguised aluminum bikes. (Maybe they use them to make crop circles too.)
Then you come here and recommend Campy and diss Shimano pricing structure. However you don't ride a Trek and it appears you don't ride Shimano.
I have 10's of thousands of miles on Dura-Ace and Ultegra. The Dura-Ace is a definite step up and not purely cosmetic. It is quite a bit different. Whether this will be true with the 10 speed remains to be seen. I've ridden both and I would not spend the extra money unless there was a reason to do so.
Campy folks have said that Chorus and Record are very similar in performance. That is Campy. Dura-Ace is in another category from Ultegra.
Please don't use your Trek routine of changing your points or nit picking my comments. Just take the input of someone with first hand experience instead of conjecture. You would have been wise to do that in the Trek forum.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Hey Lon,
You obviously dont know me, cause if you did you would know i wont make a point of bashing any product, UNLESS there is a justified reason to do so. Ok so its back to the old Trek scenario,well well well,as far as i'm concerned the dog is dead, and so is that piece of training bike Trek frameset that i gladly sold, replaced with a far superior Orbea frameset.
As far as Campy versus ShimaNO goes, i prefer Campy equipment simply because i can get individual spare parts for it without buying the whole assembly, and also like polished parts that stay looking good and not peeling or corroding.Campy just has a more reliable build and quality to it that the guys in japan are still trying to reach.
F.Y.I Present Chorus models are last years Record models rebadged,so its bound to feel similiar,surely you know this.
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Its time to ride.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Allan,
You are stating an opinon is if it were fact. If only opinion you are entitled to it. If stating fact, you are WRONG.
The fact that more and more european professional teams are using Shimano belies that they have a quality problem. Too many team managers are making those decisions to be wrong. Campy is losing market share to Shimano. The market is not all wrong. I read a lot of bicyling forums and nowhere do I get an impression that Shimano quality is second to Campy. Where there is smoke, there is fire and I don't even see smoke.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I took my new Custom Tetra Pro Calfee on it's first ride since I got it (when the rain stopped for a few hours). I was used to Tiagra on my Giant OCR2 and it worked just fine for me in 2500 miles of riding. I have Ultegra on my Calfee and I'm very pleased at the improvement in shifting, although it's really only subtle. The front derailleur, though, is crisper since I'm on a compact now, having gone from a triple.
Although Dura-Ace is superior (by a small amount as far as function is concerned) to Ultegra in the weight department, for my style of riding I went with the cheaper drivetrain since durability is just slightly better in the Ultergra over Dura-Ace.
Having been around since downtube friction shifters on a true ten-speed, components are much, much improved since then. 
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 721
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
Insightdriver wrote:
........ since durability is just slightly better in the Ultergra over Dura-Ace........
That's an interesting statement, on what do you base it? Are you sure you didn't mean it the other way around?
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
Edited by Dave_Thompson (03/24/05 05:55 AM)
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I base my opinion (note this is an opinion only) on what my LBS guy says and on extensive reviews I had read over the months when I was contemplating my purchase of a custom bike. Here is a review that gives the impression that I have:
Reviewed by: David Smithson, Road Racer, from Pasadena, CA U.S.
Price Paid: $950.0000 at Colorado Cyclist
Favorite Ride:
Pasadena Foothills
Bike Setup:
Colnago C-40 w/ Dura-Ace 9sp. Classics Elite front wheel, Spinergy Rev-X rear wheel. Record Carbon post.
Summary:
I am a category 1 racer. Currently I have two bikes I race on and one training bike for the off season. My Colnago C-40 is the all-around machine, outfitted with Dura-Ace 9. I have a Giant TCR Team with full Record 10 that I use for time trials and stage races with serious climbs.
Frankly, I love both groups: they are top of the line, and if they are adjusted properly, should never give you any serious problems. Campy has dramatically improved their components, but I have found the Campy to be a little more sensitive and delicate than the Dura-Ace. That is not a complaint though. I had a bad crash on the Campy once and one of the carbon levers simply shattered. I have to pay for my own components, for this reason I use it only on my Giant. The Giant, by the way, is insanely light at just over 17lbs. The C-40 with Dura-Ace is much heavier, but is an overall stronger less delicate machine. After riding many bikes I have found two that perform beautifully. I have an outstanding mechanic however, and that is as important as the machine you choose to ride. Its a bit silly to feud over which group is better than the other. Both are excellent. If I wasn't a serious racer, I wouldn't ride either one. My off-season training bike has a 105, Ultegra mix, and its performance is absolutely flawless - and I abuse the hell out of it every Winter, in all kinds of weather. My advice to shoppers is to avoid the high priced, top-of-the-line groups unless you are racing seriously. Anyway, Dura-Ace is a great gruppo, as is Campy Record. If you ride them both for any length of time you will notice that they feel substantially different. Find what works for you.
Strengths:
Works extremely well, price is great!
Weaknesses:
Lacks the flash and beauty of Campy 10.
Similar Products Used:
Campy 9 and 10, Shimano 8
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 721
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Interesting. I ride Dura Ace and Ultegra, while my wife's Calfee is all Ultegra. Operational differences of course, but I've found zero difference in dependability between the two levels. For us, both have been dependable for the many 1000's of miles we've ridden over the years. No problems with anything on either group. I do all the maintenance and repairs on all our bikes, and so far there have been no replacement of any component, other than expendables (cables, etc.)So, based on my experience, I look askance at something, particularly one review, that purports to have the inside info on something like this.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Dave,
I want to thank you for responding with your experience. I actually truse what you say more than much of what I've read since I have not yet read any definitive tests, only anecdotal and personal opinion posts.
I realize, too, that I am the kind of rider that does not stress components the way a Cat 1 rider would. I don't have that core strength to do so. For me, reliability is moot. In my component choices I compromised by getting Ultegra as I could not justify the cost for Dura-Ace. Doing so would have cascaded down and caused compromise in other components as well, wheels being the most important area where I would not compromise too much.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 721
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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I wasn't debating the usual Dura Ace/Ultegra thing, I fully appreciate the great value that Ultegra is. Your post about the 'dependability' issue caught me off-guard, as it's not something that is heard much.
I'm a little like you, though considerably older and went through many of the same machinations when I started biking that you are are experiencing now. I do think that I'm a bigger bike geek than most, even to the point that I took classes on bike repair, maintenance and assembly, and am self-taught in fitting. I am however, still on the search for the world's best bikes. I have several keepers now, but there is always something cuter just over the horizon.
I am having entirely too much fun!
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
Edited by Dave_Thompson (03/25/05 03:56 AM)
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Hey Dave,
I appreciate getting to know you better based on the background you gave me. I agree with you, we go through phases as we become passionate about bikes. My current stable is three, but except for the Calfee, low-end stock bikes. I was just very, very lucky to have been able to spend as much money as I did on my Calfee. Funny thing now, after having ridden it nearly 40 miles so far I'm looking at it and thinking to myself, "it's a bike, that's all, a bike."
It's not so much that I'm in awe with it in that I'm still in a state of amazement that I actually pulled the trigger and it sits in front of me in all it's carbon beauty.
I had an interesting experience on my ride on Saturday. There are regular resting spots along the American River Bicycle trail that I ride. I stopped at one and was invited to share the bench. Someone noticed a rider had a Moots bike and people were discussing it. No one had noticed my Calfee as I had parked it on the back side of the bench.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 721
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Calfee is somewhat of a 'stealth' bike, not widely known. If one is among a group of other high-end bikes, the Calfee will most likely be noticed last, if at all. Which would be fine with me, because usually the questions asked can be inane if not downright stupid, ie: "Aren't you afraid of catastrophic failures?", that kind of question.
The folks that know good bikes, regardless of price, appreciate them for what they are, ones ride. Though I no longer own a Calfee, my wife does and she won't let me buy her another bike. (I'd love to get her a Serotta)
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
Dave_Thompson wrote:
Your post about the 'dependability' issue caught me off-guard, as it's not something that is heard much.
I know less than any of you -- just to keep that clear.
But maybe insightful: Shimano in the mountain bike world, the top two are XTR at the top, shimano XT second. XTR/XT = DuraAce/Ultegra. Do you think they'd have a different philosophical merchandising strategy to their road equipment? I'd be surprised.
There's always been a very clear distinction between the two, from the mags to riders to friends, but...to what end?
The first common/accepted opinion is if you want the longest term dependability/strength, you'll go XT. The more agressive racing, downhill and stuff, they'll race XT. But you know what? It works great. It's heavier than xtr.
The second common/accepted opinion is XTR is lighter and more precise. My new xtr (brake/shifter combo) is way more precise than my XT stuff without a doubt. Crispest, cleanest shifting I've ever experienced, I can't even remember adjusting the stuff in over a year. I'd even put it up against my Dura Ace 10 on my road bike.
The third common opinion is performance-wise, they are both outstanding.
As usual I ramble. But in the mountain bike world the XT stuff is generally considered to be stuff that can take a beating more. XTR ligther, more precise, etc. This is commonly known and accepted. But on the road I can't imagine how any of this even matters as long as you take care of the stuff -- shifting's the only abuse it's going to take. Unless you shift badly, even then on a mountain bike that's going to hurt the equipment a lot more.
I have 2k on my Dura Ace 10 stuff, zero problems. It "feels" better than the Ultegra (9-speed) on my wife's bike.
Far as Campy goes, I don't like the hoods/towers (what are they?). They feel too small in my hands. Like my hand's going to slip off the top. But I do like the shifting, different, not better. So of course I need a bike with a full campy set up.
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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I like your thoughts Nev, in reagrds to XTR vs XT and D/A vs Ultegra. It would seem to me that Shimano does market them in a similar fashion, absolutely. I would however, disagree, that XTR or D/A is less durable than XT or Ultegra. Industry wide, you may be correct, but I feel differently.
It has been my experience that XTR and D/A are in fact more durable. The fact that many of the compnents are bearing supported, rather than with bushings as in XT or Ultegra certaily makes them smoother to operate, but also more durable. The cartidge bearings more more impervious to the elements, thus lasting longer than bushings.
I mainly ride my mtb as the road riding in my area is mainly a single large hill climb that gets old. Using that as my basis for suporting my thoughts, I have gone thru LX components in a single summer, XT have made it thru 2 summers easily and my M952 XTR is still tight and smooth after a 3rd summer, with no issues. It is also widley known that some components are actually lighter in XT grade over XTR. I do not have, nor have had a full Ultegra grouppo to compare to D/A. I have used D/A for 7 or 8 years after making a huge leap from 105.
This is just from my experiences. I am not overly hard on my gear, though I crash from time to time on the trail. I'm also very anal about keeping my bikes clean and well maintained. My bikes get very curt if I don't wash them and I would swear that I have been "bucked off" at least twice for not cleaning my bike, before hitting the trail with a dirty bike:) Joking aside, I work on my friends bikes all the time and I have found that the lower the grouppo level, the less tolerent the bike is to slacking maintenance. 105 stuff can certainly last a long time, but not as long as Ultegra or D/A. Regardless, if you do not maintain the gear it won't last no matter what you have...of course we all know this.
Cheers...Mark
PS - Nev, was M960 XTR worth the expense? I am thinking of upgrading to it from my current setup when I have wore it out, I expect in another season or two. Did you find the shifting style was difficult to adjust to? How about the Rapid Rise rear derailleur?...there are tons of conflicting reviews regarding that subject.
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
Nev wrote:
I know less than any of you -- just to keep that clear.
Seems I was right again!
Hey skagwayroadie,
Sorry for the late reply. Work, work, work.
I'm not equipped to respond to your finely articulated experience with the XT/XTR stuff. Hopefully I didn't come off as an expert, which I am clearly not. I think you know more than me.
As the the 960 stuff I honestly have not had a single problem with it ever. Have been amazingly stable in that I really can't remember having anything adjusted, have only replaced brake pads. And no, the shifting was not hard to get used to. It became intuitive quickly. I have heard some folks don't like the stuff, but I've had no problems. Including a mud/rain fest 24hr race in Feburary. I had to clean dirt/grit out of the brake pads and calipers between laps but that was all. So far the stuff has just worked for me. Smooth, crisp shifting. Very happy with it. Pricewise it came on a stock build.
You see my Strong hardtail in the Strong thread? I have a big smile on my face when I'm done riding it. I did my first non-endurance race two weeks ago and rode this bike and got 6th in my class after starting last, caught behind two crashes early, stuck in traffic on the single track hills, dropped a chain and a host of other excuses. I barely noticed the bike at all. I love it.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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IMO, the notion that DA is less durable than Ultegra stems from the bottom brackets of the corresponding 9 sp. groups. In that one regard, the Ultegra had better seals, was slightly heavier, but the seals contributed to better durability if riding in the elements (rain).
Aside from that, the durability should be a wash.
FWIW, Ultegra and 105 are identical with the exception on finish. I think 105 is vastly under-rated.
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Hey Nev...No sweat...I have been super busy too!
Sweet hardtail! I like it...a lot. I just picked up a cheapie steel hardtail - an older GT, fully rigid...it is gonna be a fun bike to commute on. I plan to set it up with a single chainring int he front, and an XTR cassette in the rear, the rest will be M952 stuff I have laying around. It is gonna be a commute/grocery/pedi-cab towing bike. Perfect for what I need it for!
As far as you coming off as an expert in regards to the subject of XTR vs XT - I had the opinion that you considerred yourself an expert. Like I try to be, you come off as an avid rider sharing your experiences...nothing more, nothing less. I don't have anything to prove and I hope you are the same...I think you are, anyway:)
Thanks for the info and comments regarding M960 components...I think I am gonna take the plunge and get the grouppo for my trail bike.
Cheers...Mark
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