trikobe
friend
Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 31
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Anyone using Zipp 404 front and back as an all purpose wheel? I know they are mainly used for tri, tt, but am considering a pair for all around riding (flats, hills, etc..) Would they be a disadvantage on sprints, accelerations and moderate climbs....or should I say a noticeable difference. I have a Rolf elan wheelset, so I thought why not get a deep dish and use my Rolfs for days when I do a lot of climbing and use the 404s for everything else. thanks in advance
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Bruce
contributor
Reged: 12/27/03
Posts: 133
Loc: North of NYC
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Don't know about Zipp 404 wheels, but carbon wheels are generally not daily wheels.
If you want a good set of light wheels for all around use, I would highly recommend the Topolino clinchers. The are stiff, but offer a softer ride (less road buzz), light, AL rim, so good durability, and cool looking.
Best price on the net:
Western BikeWorks
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Jim Skirboll the owner of Trizilla uses them for training. I met him on a ride the other night. I would give him a call. He is a Tri person and 215 (of muscle) so you will get good insight on it. (Tell him Lon...Jason's friend...that he met in the dark in the parking lot says hi.) The number is: 1-800-504-5392. Trizilla is in the Pittsburgh area.
He just opened the store not too long ago and made an immediate impact. He was highly successful in food service and lost his lease. Now he is having fun.
PLUS you can't beat his price...$999.99. That is way under any other prices I've seen. He does it because he bought a whole lot of them.
You can even buy a Cervelo P3 Dura-Ace 10 and get the Zipp 404 as a free upgrade. Look under in store promotions.
Anyone who has had the Topo's in our forum has spoken well about them.
Good luck.
Trizilla
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mb2k
new member
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 23
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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I have a set of Zipp 404's. First of all, Zipp's make a great wheel.
On the road, and for most workouts...you find the wind really plays with the 404's. It is a great wheel for Tri's...and, when you want aerodynamics. If you're climbing a lot...the wheel is obviously heavier than the 202 or the 303. After riding my 404's for a year or so...I picked up a pair of 303's. I like them a lot more for day to day riding. The wind doesn't play with them as much, lighter and just as stiff. Honestly, I don't ride the 404's much anymore. So, if you're doing Tri's...the 404's are great...if not, look at the 303 or 202. OR, if you really have some bucks...check out the Z3's!
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trikobe
friend
Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 31
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How well do the 303 respond to acceleration since most of the weight is on the rim? Have you had any problems with your 303s in terms of reliability, staying true, breakage, cracks, warpage, etc.. since you do use it daily?
Just ordered a custom wheelset using Hugi 240s hubs, Hugi 1.1 rims and super comp spokes for my training and commuting days and have always lusted after a Zipp carbon wheelset for those hard Sunday group rides.
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trikobe
friend
Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 31
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I already have a light set of clincers (Rolf Elan)so I really have no interest in getting another set. I recently ordered a custom set using Hugi hubs, rims and Super comp spokes for my training and daily commute rides. Weight of the wheelset should be around 1500 g. could have made it lighter using revolution spokes and fewer spoke counts but I weigh 175lbs and was looking for durability over light weight. I'm not that big a fan of the Topolinos...I'm sure they ride great but they just look plain weird...like kids' bikes with the colorful beads that spin on the spokes (not meant to offend anyone with Topos). I've always wanted a pair of light carbon wheelset that will support my weight and riding style.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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The rim only weighs 360 grams, which is still quite light. Most of your energy is going into overcoming drag anyway. I just bought a Dragonfly with 202s, & I'm looking forward to being able to compare them. I can tell you that 404s still accelerate very well, and they are so aerodynamic, you can go a mile or two an hour faster with the same effort. I once won a 45 mph sprint on a pair of the old 440s, beating lots of people still running regular spoked wheels back in 1995. I think that you would only notice the weigh difference on the rim in a blazingly fast criterium with lots of accel & decel or when attacking hard on a climb.
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trikobe
friend
Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 31
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It seems the middle ground would be to get the 303s. From what I have heard at LBS, the 202s are very light and fast wheels. Surprisingly they don't have any experience with 404s. With my weight, I wouldn't even think about riding one of those..plus, I want a set that has a deeper rim. One wheelbuilder told me that you would not get the benefit from mid or deep dish rims unless you were pushing at least 30 mph. Because I want these to be a do it all wheelset, and not specialty wheels, like for time trials, flats,etc., there's no way I will always be pushing that speed unless I'm in my car. I've got varying terrain and though the 303s might not be ideal for climbs, it would def. improve on flats and downhills. Besides, if Tyler used it to win a tour stage, it can't be that bad (though I think he was on the Z3s).
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garygromet
friend
Reged: 01/28/04
Posts: 36
Loc: Miami, FL, USA
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Zipp 404s tubulars are strong enough for daily use.
I use them on our tandem as well. See the picture of the DF tandem in the Photo Album.
They are also more comfortable than aluminum rims.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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I concur. The wheels are surprisingly comfortable despite their astonishing lack of flex. I disagree with the LBS that you can only tell the difference at upwards of 30MPH. Aerodynamics starts to make a lot of difference at even about 15-18 MPH. CSC used 404s almost exclusively in this year's TDF. Basso even rode them in the Alpe D'Huez TT. However, this may have been because their Cervelo R2.5s (with all the FSA stuff) were making their bikes come in under the UCI weight limit (they are light as a D-Fly), so they just used the (1200gms) heavier 404s or Z4s. Nevertheless, they didn't consider the rim's rotating weight to be a liability. In fighting that limit, you'd be better off with a heavier bar/stem, seatpost, saddle, and brakes, rather adding rotating weight. Accelerating quickly out of 21 hairpin turns on a beyond category climb is very important to winning the bike race! Getting the 303s with a fairly high spoke count to insure the durability that you want is probably a good choice. Just don't get the clinchers. Please. If you have concerns about tubulars check out www.tufo.com. They make flat sealant for them and rim tape if you hate the gluing.
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trikobe
friend
Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 31
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Yes, durability is extremely important to me. I don't race or have a trust fund where I can change wheels out on a regular basis. Who does? I need a wheelset to last. That's why this decision is so tough. I want the benefit of a deeper dish rim without it being too much of a liability in acceleration and climbs. I'm sure once you get up to speed and into a rhythm on climbs that the rotating weight will be a non issue or neglible. Zipp 303s it is.
Not to worry, there was only one way to go on this wheelset: tubulars. I was actually planning on getting the Tufo Elite Jets. Any experience with these versus the S3 Lites?
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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I find the S3 and S3 lite to be a nice tire. I would run an S3 lite front and s3 rear. I like a lighter tire up front because you don't really need as much tread up there, and then you go with the rear 240gm tire for added puncture resistance. FYI you can use the sealant TUFO offers on other tires. The 202s that came with my Dragonfly have Conti sprinters and they feel nice and gnarly. They are probably more puncture resistant than the TUFOs. How much that matters depends on whether you are planning to train on these wheels at all.
Just to confuse matters, I just rode the D-Fly for the first time and those 202 are also really nice. I tend to go to extremes - I like the really speedy crits with lots of speed changes, so the 202s are ideal. I also like the 404 because it is so aero and that really helps with some courses. The thing that impressed me most about the 202 is that for a 1kg wheelset, it is very sturdy and it feels stiff but not harsh. And the bike is nicer than I expected.
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bigmatt
new member
Reged: 08/31/04
Posts: 3
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Quote:
trikobe wrote:
Yes, durability is extremely important to me. I don't race or have a trust fund where I can change wheels out on a regular basis. Who does? I need a wheelset to last. That's why this decision is so tough. I want the benefit of a deeper dish rim without it being too much of a liability in acceleration and climbs. I'm sure once you get up to speed and into a rhythm on climbs that the rotating weight will be a non issue or neglible. Zipp 303s it is.
Not to worry, there was only one way to go on this wheelset: tubulars. I was actually planning on getting the Tufo Elite Jets. Any experience with these versus the S3 Lites?
Yo, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here, but if you're concerned with price why on earth are you riding around on Zipps? They're racing wheels. You can get a beautiful set of custom built wheels for a fraction of the price. Save the Zipps for racing and they'll last a lot longer.
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trikobe
friend
Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 31
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First of all, no on here said they were worried about the price of wheelsets. We all ride Calfees (or other high end custom frames) here and if we can justify the price of the frame and build up, a wheelset or two is just icing on the cake. We were just talking about durability and performance. You wouldn't buy anything that's not worth its value in longevity?
Secondly, what are race wheels? Are they just wheels you race on. I know guys who race with Ksyriums, Neutrons, and even Cosmos. Then there are guys who race with Reynolds carbon, Rolfs and custom wheels. You can't say that expensive and lightweight wheels are race wheels because guys on TdFrance used Ksyriums which are not light by any means. My buddy rides Reynolds carbon as daily wheels. He doesn't seem to have any durability issues? Point is that you don't have to race or use them specifically as race wheels to enjoy them or benefit from them. I personally don't race, but that doesn't mean that I can't own a pair of Zipp carbons and use them for Sunday group rides. From previous post, I think carbon wheels for group rides would be great.
For me personally, I wouldn't use them as daily wheels since I am not light by any means. That's why I have a custom wheelset for commutes/training. I'm about 175 lbs but I'm sure lighter guys would not have any problems with well built carbon wheels for daily rides.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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Here is my final brain dump on the subject: I have to throw down a plug for Velomax wheels. I had a set on my pre-Calfee (Airborne) bike and they were super durable albeit a bit heavy - they are Circuits. Velomax now makes a lighter wheelset and I'm confident that it is equally sturdy and it is a sub 1.5 kg wheelset (and it is probably still pretty aero). That is pretty light, although the Zipps are much faster and lighter. My shop whines that Zipps have QC issues but I've never had a problem. They talk real big aboubt Mavics, and the top dog there just saw a new set of the Carbones, which he said was super nice. That could be an option to explore. The Campy Eurus wheelset is also a greatly admired wheel, semi-aero 30mm (I think) and about 1.6 kg. Totally bombproof according to my best riding buddy. They just came out with a Carbon version and I bet that is a sweet wheel.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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My bike shop claims to have the same QC issues with Zipps but I have no firsthand data. I will say they steered me away from them.
Also; " You wouldn't buy anything that's not worth its value in longevity?"
I'm not sure I agree with you on that. I've heard it stated you can have lightweight, durability or inexpensive. Choose two because you can't have all three. I'd argue that when you get ultralight you can only have one.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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Part of the durability issue has to do with how careful you are. I am really careful not to smash up my wheels. So my stuff lasts, even if it is lightweight. That quote is from Keith Bontrager, and in a recent interview on cyclingnews.com, he seemed to distance himself from it somewhat. The technology is so much better now that I think you can have it all.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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I guess it depends on your definition of durable. Most people who buy a set of 36 sp DA/Open Pros expect at least a decade of use and tens of thousands of miles out of them. Those buying ultralight Zipps will probably be satisfied if they last more than a season or 2.
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mb2k
new member
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 23
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Sorry I didn't see your reply earlier...good to hear you decided on the Zipp's. They're a dependable wheel! I did hit a metal piece...part of a gate once and picked up a small crack. And, once again...hit a car and collapsed the wheel. The fact that the wheel took the impact probably saved me from bad injuries! But, both times...Zipp replaced the wheel under their "crash program". It's nice to know that if you damage the wheel that Zipp will stand behind you. Also, no alignment issues...had the wheels checked maybe twice in 2 years with minor adjustments. I like the Tufo's...good tires. I also liked the Zipp tire...understand they have re-designed it. Looking forward to checking those out.
Enjoy the wheels...you're riding the best frame...might as well put a great wheel on it! (I also hear great things about the Reynolds wheels...)
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trikobe
friend
Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 31
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What is their crash program and the extent of damage that is reasonable under the program? How long did it take them to rebuild the wheels? Cost of rebuild?
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garygromet
friend
Reged: 01/28/04
Posts: 36
Loc: Miami, FL, USA
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I have found Zipp's warranty program to be excellent. It is on a par with Kestrel's.
Therefore, LBS do not care for the wheel as the wheels are replaced for free if it is likely that the failure resulted from Zipp's actions or at less that wholesale if it was the user/owner's fault. There is no reason for LBS to sell products with a warranty like that.
Unlike Mavic, I have found Zipp to act in a timely manner on warranty claims.
The exact replacement price varies. Wholesale prices on the 404s have gone up about 10% this year.
I rate the tubular Zipp 404 as a 10, because it is aero, comfortable, very strong and therefore catastrophic failure unheard of, and allows our Calfee to take corner at its full potential.
If I soloed biked in the mountains, I would try out 303s or better yet the 202s, but being in flat but windy Florida, such wheels are pointless.
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trikobe
friend
Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 31
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With a warranty like that, seems you can't lose.
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mb2k
new member
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 23
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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As I recall...it ran a few hundred bucks to replace the wheel on the crash program...but, that was a Z3...$1400 wheel! MUCH better than paying for a new wheel! The ceramic ball bearing's in the Z3's are sweet...just fyi.
Enjoy your Zipps!
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