vlow
new member
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 5
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Just received my Calfee ERGO barstem... BEAUTIFUL..... Since both my bike and the barstem are nude, it seem to be a shame to have it all taped up. Has anyone tape a similiar barstem leaving the top of the barstem exposed? If you have,is it comfortable?
Thanks in advance
Vic
Edited by vlow (10/19/04 04:32 PM)
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cinelli
contributor
Reged: 01/17/04
Posts: 109
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Would you mean "taping" as in handlebar tape as opposed to "tapping"?
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vlow
new member
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 5
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OOPS.... my bad..... taping is what I meant. No wonder I'm not getting any responds.
Thanks for the correction.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I've seen them left without tape...comfortable...?
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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In all fairness, it is amazing how much better a layer of cork under then gloves improves the comfort to my hands. Since the feeling in my digits come and goes from the years of heavy riding/racing, a little wrap is a must.
That being said, bar wrap is more of a grip issue to me than anything. I actually rode my bike without bar tape for a while when I first had carbon bars, thinking how striking that carbon looked in the cockpit...well, the first ride in the rain changed that. Amazing how slick waxed carbon bars can be. They sure looked great wet, but made high speed decents on the tops a little nerve racking! Yes, one could get a pair of cushy gel gloves for the comfort issue, but they are horrible, perhaps worse than gel saddles. Nothin beats cork (synthetic or real) under my thin gloves...IMHO.
You could start the wrap father out towards the hoods, than tradional wrapping techniques dictate...the best of both worlds?! that is what I do and it works well, asthentically and functionally.
Regards...Mark
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Wet carbon...I would have never thought about that either. It must have been a "fun" descent knowing where you live. The mental picture did bring a laugh knowing you made it down! 
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Bruce
contributor
Reged: 12/27/03
Posts: 133
Loc: North of NYC
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I saw one bike with these bars and they were not taped all the way up like you would normal bar. I think the tape came up about an inch or so past the shifters. I assume you are running Ergo on them to match the carbon, like the bike I saw. I don't know how the guy solved the cable issue though. Never got around to talking about how or why he taped his bar that way.
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BobK
new member
Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 3
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I have the IRD B2 bar on my Tetra. I think that it is the same bar as the Barstem but it is attached with a stem rather than as integrated unit. I have taped just up to my brake levers and have left the bar tops un taped. I have foam glued to the underside of the top of the bar so that my fingers do not come in contact with the Campy cables. I find the set up to be extremely comfortable and I really like the feel of the finger notches on the bar top without tape.
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vlow
new member
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 5
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Hey BOB,
Could I trouble you in taking some pics of your handle bar? I'm not sure what you mean by foam glue, I have yet figure out how to "hold down" the cables under the bar. I can email you privately if you can get some pics.
Thanks to everyone for your input
Vic
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Kevan
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 70
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Boy...it's been too long between posting here...
The recent events involving Fast Freddy drew me back.
Anyways... the question is tape and how much. How 'bouts wrapping the steed like a track bike? Or maybe an inch or two above the hood. Here's a sample:
http://www.vanillabicycles.com/bikes/track/bike_c/lrg/1.jpg
Keep in mind that tape is an important ingredient to your safety; there's a price for beauty.
What concerns me too about the topic of carbon bars is the frequency of replacing them. Zinn, in his maintenance book, suggests replacement of any bar every 3 years, that we should never assume the bars and stem on our bike as a permanent fixture. So what do you folk think? Just this morning someone in Serottaville suggested that CF forks too be replaced on a 2-3 year cycle.
Kevan
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
Kevan wrote:
Just this morning someone in Serottaville suggested that CF forks too be replaced on a 2-3 year cycle.
Kevan
LOL! I guess I better go buy three to five new forks!
www.geocities.com/skuke89/fork.html
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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Skuke-
How was that fork broken ? Crash before the break or crash because of the break ?
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
dave_donielson wrote:
Skuke-
How was that fork broken ? Crash before the break or crash because of the break ?
Unknown. Probably because of the break.
The fork belonged to friend of mine. He was riding his Kestrel to work. Next thing he remembered was waking up on the road with strangers standing over him. Broken clavicle, concussion, and no real memory of what happened.
The best scenario we could surmise is that he picked up a stick somehow and the spokes "pulled" it into one blade causing a break then the other blade broke in the resulting fall and lack of bilateral support. Another possible cause was an animal but there is no blood on the fork so we decided that wasn't it.
I have the fork because I live sorta near Kestrel and wanted to drop the fork off for analysis, but just never got around to it. The analysis is important to me since I have the same model and era fork on my Tetra Pro.
There are more details at rec.bicycle.tech from February of 2004. Google the newsgroup.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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dave_donielson
friend
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 32
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Quote:
skuke wrote:[/
Unknown. Probably because of the break.
The fork belonged to friend of mine. He was riding his Kestrel to work. Next thing he remembered was waking up on the road with strangers standing over him. Broken clavicle, concussion, and no real memory of what happened.
The best scenario we could surmise is that he picked up a stick somehow and the spokes "pulled" it into one blade causing a break then the other blade broke in the resulting fall and lack of bilateral support. Another possible cause was an animal but there is no blood on the fork so we decided that wasn't it.
I have the fork because I live sorta near Kestrel and wanted to drop the fork off for analysis, but just never got around to it. The analysis is important to me since I have the same model and era fork on my Tetra Pro.
There are more details at rec.bicycle.tech from February of 2004. Google the newsgroup.
Thanks- a little scary to see something like that. Biking certainly can be dangerous. Not the first time I have heard of someone waking up on the road and having no idea what happened. Ouch.
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Jeff
friend
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 68
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I have a BarStem as well and love the bar. I have mine taped from the drops to the hoods and untaped from the hoods to stem. The cables are (Shimano) routed in the recess under the bar and covered with a strip of electrical tape. I did not think the tape would stay but so far no problems. I also put a little silicone seal in the recess to help hold the cable in place. I wear gloves and have not found the bare carbon to be to slippery or any other issues. The shape of the bars gives you a lot of area to spread out your hand pressure and is very comfortable. I think wraping the odd shape of the tops would be difficult at best and so far I see no reason to even try.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Skuke, I don't know what you can safely assume in an event which wasn't witnessed or remembered. I've had two buddies go down hard (different events), both with temporary amnesia. Neither one recalls a thing about their crashes. Neither one broke a fork but my point is people do crash, hit a rock or pothole a stick or an animal. I don't think you can necessarily blame the fork is all I'm saying. Cause or result? I don't know if analysis of the fork would help after being crashed.
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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It was a fun descent, but I was tired, cold and really wet!
One could say I should not have been on the tops to start with... :-)
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Welcome back Kevin!
That is an interesting point about replacing a bar every 3 years, but I have issues with that. For one, it does not give any weight towards the miles the bars have on them, the kind of riding the bars have been subjected to. Too many variables to just say replace every so many years. I do think that some components should be regularly replaced, just not sure on when. Obviously some components can be replaced as needed when they fail...others like bars or stems or forks, can not.
I wholehearted agree with vaxn8r. Can't blame the component alone.
Jeff's way of wrapping his bar is very similar to how I wrap mine, using electrical tape and silicone adhesive. But now that clear duct tape is out, I use it instead of the electrical tape.
...Mark
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Skagway you might want to hold judgment on welcoming Kevan back! He has been "whoring" himself over on the Serotta Forum and ignoring us. What do you think? Should we make him pay a petinence or maybe beg forgiveness? He even has PHOTOS over there in his messages. How about that!!!!!  He ran out on us!!! What should we do?
PS To those who don't realize it...my tongue is in my cheek.
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
vaxn8r wrote:
Skuke, I don't know what you can safely assume in an event which wasn't witnessed or remembered. I've had two buddies go down hard (different events), both with temporary amnesia. Neither one recalls a thing about their crashes. Neither one broke a fork but my point is people do crash, hit a rock or pothole a stick or an animal. I don't think you can necessarily blame the fork is all I'm saying. Cause or result? I don't know if analysis of the fork would help after being crashed.
Sorry if I was not clear, but neither I nor anyone else is blaming the fork, per se, for the crash.
If for example, the rider did pick up a stick which then crashed into a fork blade causing failure, do you blame the stick? The fork for not being strong enough? The rider for hitting the stick? The tree for dropping said stick?... But, we do believe that the break caused the fall rather than the fall causing the fork breakage. What was the last time you've seen a fork break (like the photos) without hitting an immobile object like a car or wall etc.??
I say we believe the stick scenario to be the best explanation because he rode the route to work all the time. He was very familiar with road and would have known of pot holes and the like. Also, FWIW, he was a jr. national cyclocross champion, an expert class mt. bike racer, and a former San Francisco bike messenger. In other words, he has great bike handling skills. I would fully expect him to be able to ride over, around, or through whatever obstacle presented before him. But, sh*t happens and I agree with you; people crash.
Also, you should know that in addition to his great bike handling skills, he only weighs about 125 pounds! Not exactly a Clydesdale (more like a Whippet). So it's not like he continuosly over stressed the fork every day.
Personally, because I have the same fork, I wanted the analysis to rule out possible design/manufacturing flaws. If Kestrel has the time, energy, money and resources, you better believe that it's possible to determine if the fork failed spontaneously or due to an outside force. However, we'll probably never know (do in part to my procrastination) because nobody died and there are no subsequent lawsuits.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Okay Lon, you do have a good point...I am a fan or tar and feathering...flogging sounds good too!!! Anyone else?
IS there any damage to the wheel? If the fork did get damaged due to a stick, then the spokes surely would show evidence of the stick. It would then be pretty clear the fork did not spontaneously fail...analysis of the fork would not be necessary then.
...Mark
Edited by skagwayroadie (10/25/04 04:57 PM)
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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I don't think you can actually "stress" a CF fork. Barring damage of some sort, or poor engineering, it ought to last forever. A poorly engineered fork ought to fail fairly quickly.
Both of my budies had logged tens of thousands of miles on their bikes. Both very experienced. They simply have no recall or their accidents. I just don't know how you can be sure the fork failed first, thus causing the accident. It could have been a squirrel, deer, a rock, a stick as you mentioned, who knows? Another friend of mine was basically attacked by a cat who broadsided him at 25mph. The cat was wedged between the front spokes and the fork blade until he finally got the bike slowed down and then finally he endoed. Then the cat took off (a bloody mess). I wouldn't have believed it had I not witnessed it.
Anyway, you can't dwell too much on such things. Get a new fork if it's freaking you out...no disrespect intended.
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
vaxn8r wrote:
I don't think you can actually "stress" a CF fork. Barring damage of some sort, or poor engineering, it ought to last forever. A poorly engineered fork ought to fail fairly quickly.
I just don't know how you can be sure the fork failed first, thus causing the accident. It could have been a squirrel, deer, a rock, a stick as you mentioned, who knows?
Anyway, you can't dwell too much on such things. Get a new fork if it's freaking you out...no disrespect intended.
Perhaps "stressing" a CF fork is not an entirely accurate description. I meant, for example, if you weighed 250lbs and slammed into potholes every day, besides going broke from repairing wheels, I can't believe it would be too good for the rest of the components including the fork.
Regarding poor engineering. Performance bike components are engineered to be the lightest weight without sacreficing safety and performance. A CF fork can be designed and built to withstand being run over by an M1A1 Abrams tank without damage. Of course that fork would be ridiculously huge, heavy and far in excess of what any cyclist would need. So how much do you remove before the fork is unsafe for a cyclist? Do you then call it poorly engineered? Or just "pushing the envelope"?
The airplane tail section that broke off several years ago CAUSING a horrific crash and loss of life. Was that poorly engineered? It certainly didn't fail quickly (I presume you mean time of usage before failure rather than rate of failure from onset). It lasted many years, hours of service and miles logged before failure.
I am NOT sure the fork failed causing the crash! Several times I said we "believe" and words to that effect. But regardless, there is no other evidence to show otherwise. There is no reason to believe the fork broke apart as a result OF the crash. Eyewitness accounts of events are notoriously inaccurate. Five people, five different stories. So even if my friend DID remember exactly what happend, analysis of the fork would still provide the most accurate evidence of why it failed.
Say for example that the fork was in fact designed to withstand having a one inch oak stick slammed into it at 30mph. Analysis could show that there was a manufacturing flaw because this particular unit was made on a Friday at 4:45 and was missing a layer of CF, for example.
Our debate here seems to stem from your belief that the fork can't be analyzed and I think it can. Also you believe that since there are no eyewitness accounts, accurate info can't be determined. Again I disagree. With all due respect, I'd just as soon end this sub-thread because neither of us can prove our points (unless I drop the fork off to Kestrel) and in fact, are only our opinions.
...And no. I feel no disrespect. As I've said before in this forum: To paraphrase a sig line I like: I may completely disagree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
skagwayroadie wrote:
IS there any damage to the wheel? If the fork did get damaged due to a stick, then the spokes surely would show evidence of the stick. It would then be pretty clear the fork did not spontaneously fail...analysis of the fork would not be necessary then.
...Mark
I never saw the wheel. I'll ask the fork owner about it.
Let me clarify. *I* do not believe the fork failed spontaneously. I think this because if it did, you would have heard of more failures of this fork. I Googled it and can't find any to speak of. There would have been a safety recall or an awful lot of law suits if this model fork was under engineered and had a propensity to failing spontaneously. In fact, this fork has a pretty good reputation for strength and durability.
BTW, www.cpsc.gov is the Consumer Product Safety Commission web site where you can search for recalls.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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I understand your points completely, Skuke, and my poorly worded thoughts were not very clear...my apologies to you...no offense intended.
And thankyou for bringing the subject up, it is good to hear that even the best companies can have product lemons or odd failures that defy explaination. These issues should never diminish the enjoyment, nor prevent us from throwing a leg over and going out for a spin...Ever.
Happy riding!
...Mark
PS...it is funny that the thread started out as a question about wrapping CF bars and migrated to broken CF forks...interesting. I love these forums sometimes!
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
skagwayroadie wrote:
my apologies to you...no offense intended.
PS...it is funny that the thread started out as a question about wrapping CF bars and migrated to broken CF forks...interesting. I love these forums sometimes!
No worries.
Segues, ain't they grand? :-)
Just had a thought about the original thread. I don't surf, so please excuse my ignorance if this is totally off base. Skagwayroadie mentioned that unwrapped bars become quite slippery in the rain. So how about using surfing wax?? ...The stuff you rub on the board. Isn't that stuff supposed to provide a high grip surface?
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Quote:
The airplane tail section that broke off several years ago CAUSING a horrific crash and loss of life. Was that poorly engineered? It certainly didn't fail quickly (I presume you mean time of usage before failure rather than rate of failure from onset). It lasted many years, hours of service and miles logged before failure.
I find this topic interesting. Sincerely not trying to be argumentative. As for the airplane tail section severance, I don't think that may be a good analogy. Everything I read about it said the evidence did not point to engineering/stress fracture/failure per se. It sounds like the co-pilot was fighting turbulence by steering with the tail, something that is specifically against their training and known that it could lead to failure of the tail section. I guess it would be more akin to doing jumps off ramps with your CF bike/fork, not just riding it.
I've heard others using the tail fracturing as a reason to not use CF but I don't think the evidence supports that conclusion.
Thoughts?
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
vaxn8r wrote:
As for the airplane tail section severance, I don't think that may be a good analogy. Everything I read about it said the evidence did not point to engineering/stress fracture/failure per se. It sounds like the co-pilot was fighting turbulence by steering with the tail, something that is specifically against their training and known that it could lead to failure of the tail section.
I've heard others using the tail fracturing as a reason to not use CF but I don't think the evidence supports that conclusion.
Thoughts?
I don't really know much about the crash other than what I recall from the media. I knew turbulence was involved, but I didn't recall that the co-pilot was trying to correct the plane using the tail. Anyhow, if your statements above about the co-pilot are correct, then shouldn't my analogy in fact be a good one?
My analogy was refering to the engineering design of the tail section. You're infering that it was designed and built properly and the failure was caused by human error. I'm saying the fork was engineered and built properly and then failed because of a load far in excess of its design parameters (possible stick).
You just gotta laugh at people when they use a sample size of one to justify. Heck, better not by a steel frame, they rust you know! Better not buy an Aluminum bike frame; beer cans are made from that stuff and people who drink too much beer crash their car!  ...at least those arguments have more data points.
I read a long time ago that when formula 1 car race teams first started using CF, kevlar... for their chassis and suspension parts, they knew that they didn't know enough about the materials. However, they were wise and clever enough to lay fiber optic cables in with the weave of high tech materials. After practice and races, they'd hook up their laser (or whatever light source) to one end of the fiber. If they got light out the other end, that meant it didn't break and the part they were checking was sufficiently strong. They then kept removing material until the fiber broke then added material back in the design. The glass fiber was the weakest link and gave early warning to failures. I thought that would be a good practice for critical things like forks.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Not being a pilot, I can not comment on the tail-section issue, though it sounds plausible.
On the other subject - F1,I heard the same thing in regards to the F1 teams first using CF in thier cars. I just read an artical about one of the current teams, BAR, I believe, used a CF transmission this year and have an even lighter one in the works for next year. In fact they won an award for for it. Talk about stress...imagine handling almost a thousand ponies, seven speeds and the G's those cars pull...amazing...!
You know...the only real problem with CF is that you never know when you are going too far, until it fails, typically with no warning. Makes me wonder how much of the trickle down effect is making it's way down to the consumer level. You know like the tubing in the D-Fly? isn't the boron composite tubes from military apps?
Whatever the case, I am glad for it.
...Mark
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SAVAGEP
new member
Reged: 11/13/04
Posts: 7
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Or for the New Englanders dare I say the K word. Klister.
For the surfers - Klister is the stickiest stuff ever created - you use it under XC skis to get grip on ice! Imagine an energy gel times ten in stickyness.
I'm with SkagwayRoadie - I cannot imagine riding without cork tape. BTW some folks use two layers of cork tape for 'cross or pavé.
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
SAVAGEP wrote:
Or for the New Englanders dare I say the K word. Klister.
Kick wax! Duh, I'm a skier (tele and downhill with an occasional skate thrown in for good measure. No classic though.) Not sure why I first thought of surf wax.
Kick wax/Klister may be too sticky though.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Knowing some of the ski bumms I do, it probably is energy gel!!!! They don't need energy gel for energy when you have Guiness, the drink and the meal, all in one glass! So what is one to do with a susplus supply of gel, slap some on your ski's and presto, cheap klister. This is how the common person invents stuff...without all the scientific testing corporations go through.
...Mark
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