Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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After having seen the look of the Ultegra 10 speed gruppo, i'll have to certainly say that while its finish is not up to the level of D/A,(painted versus polished),the revised shape of the shift/brake levers and crankset arms are certainly much more appealing visually than its D/A brother.
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Its time to ride.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I have put nearly 400 miles on my bike now with my 2005 Ultegra and I am reporting I am very happy with the group. I like the ergonomics of the levers very much for it makes a wide enough flat area on which I can place my hands without being in an awkward bend in my wrists. The shifting is so good with the rear derailieur that I can shift up while pumping out of the saddle.
I have an FSA compact crank and it's a great match with the 10 speed rear end since it gives me nearly the wide range a typical triple gives you.
The finish is blah, but that matters very little to me. The durability remains to be seen. That said it looks like a very well-designed group.
It's worth it to go with the 10 speed Ultegra in my opinion.
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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I actually like the looks of the D/A better, but for the money, you can't beat Ultegra. I'd be very surprised if there is much difference in durability between the two.
Mike
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Mike wrote:
I actually like the looks of the D/A better, but for the money, you can't beat Ultegra. Mike
With the new Shimano pricing structure and controls they are all way too expensive. I just saw carbon Campy 10 speed levers for way less than D/A. Shimano prices are getting insane especially if you want to build a bike up.
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Lon,
If you pay retail, you are certainly correct. If, for instance, you break your DA7800 brake caliper and you need to go the LBS to replace it before your group ride tomorrow, bring some lubricant.
But if you have the time to shop, and are lucky enough to have a Performance Bike retail shop in your area, the deals can be had. Last October, I stumbled into an "All Shimano On Sale" sale at performance that was only available in the stores. Most DA 7800 Items were 20% off. Some more, some less. This sale was not advertised in any of their flyers.
There are also webtailers that are selling at a discount. They don't take orders online - You have to call them directly. I bought a 7800 crankset from one of them for $322. That's a lot of money, but a lot less that the $420 that it's supposed to sell for.
Shimano put their new pricing strategy in place to prevent the LBS's from losing sales to mail order houses. In a perfect world, I'm all for that, but it seems to be backfiring on them. Retailers who buy from a distributor at the normal price can sell their merchandise for whatever price they want. The only recourse for Shimano is to cut off their distributors if they sell to retailers that then discount the product. This is impractical for Shimano since their largest distributors are the ones who sell to the discounters. In the end, the LBS still loses since most of them buy directly from Shimano, and can't discount the product even if they can afford to.
The same thing is happening with Chris King. The King Component Group is no longer selling directly to retailers who will not sign an agreement prohibiting them from discounting the products. Unlike Shimano, they have also threatened the distributors and appear to be succeeding. Some of the same outfits that are discounting Shimano, are not discounting King products.
Companies like these get away with this because they have products that people want. Most everyone I know will buy a King headset regardless of price, they are that good. Some of us (you and me anyway) are partial to king hubs and pay whatever they ask because they are made so well.
Well, what about Shimano you ask. They get away with this because they outsell Campy by a sickening margin in the US. Campy's US sales are less than $100M/yr. Shimano is something like $1.2B
Sorry for the rant. I guess I'm doubly mad about this because I like to put money into the hands of the guys who run my LBS of choice. Unfortunately, these policies, which artificaily inflate prices in the name of helping the LBS, just force me to buy from the guys who have figured out the loopholes. Make's it hard for me to look my LBS guy in the eye, since I consider him a good friend.
OK, I feel better now.
mike
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
Lon wrote:
Quote:
Mike wrote:
I actually like the looks of the D/A better, but for the money, you can't beat Ultegra. Mike
With the new Shimano pricing structure and controls they are all way too expensive. I just saw carbon Campy 10 speed levers for way less than D/A. Shimano prices are getting insane especially if you want to build a bike up.
Lon my friend, try here: http://www.comparisonpricing.com
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Great link, oh Wise Sage 
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Thanks Dave...I knew that site...it is based near where I live...the prices aren't always correct however but I always start there. For example it has the 7800 shifters for 304 and at the seller they are 379. I've run into their pricing being wrong before as well.
That said it is a great service for us. Shimano pricing is still holding close to their MSRP in so many places. Their threat is to no longer sell to them if they go below it.
Texas Cyclesport has a way around. They price a group with non-Shimano wheels. They must heavily discount or the wheels and that can help to keep the price out the door down.
Still some of these prices you see today are insane...
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BikeWise1
new member
Reged: 08/16/05
Posts: 1
Loc: Ohio
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As a LBS owner, I truly believe Shimano is trying to do the right thing for the industry. It's a sign of an unhealthy industry when my wholesale price for a Campy crank is $20-$50 higher than Excel's retail price. Those who want to support my shop are willing to shun the mail order catalogs, but I don't think they want to feel like they have to pay a premium price to do so. I certainly don't want them to feel that way either.
For those who feel this "race to the bottom" is just an inevitable trend, and I might as well just roll with it and get over it, consider this:
As long as you want to ride your bike, you are either going to have to become proficient in the art of adjusting and maintaining today's ever more finicky bikes, or have at your disposal a competent wrencher. Competency ain't free-it's priceless. Many small businesses are threatened by the "race to the bottom", especially low-margin, low profit businesses like bike shops. I don't know of many other businesses that sell $5000 products where an owner making $30K a year is considered above average! (Source: National Bicycle Dealer's Association's 2003 Cost of Doing Business survey.)
For a company to chose the conditions under which it does business, like Shimano, Chris King and others is not the same as price fixing. They don't control prices. They simply control the conditions under which their products are sold. I can tell you it has helped my shop stay in the hunt with our component prices. For the first time in years, I am able to maintain the semblance of a decent margin and still come to market at or below mail order pricing. The people who like doing business with me no longer feel they are being penalized for it. They understand that when the playing field is a little more level that expertise and customer service are what they shop for, not just the lowest price. There will always be vultures in this business who figure out the "loopholes". That doesn't mean they're smarter, it just means they're vultures. You can choose not to support them! Consider it an investment in the future solvency of your LBS.
I know this is a helluva first post here...  This subject is a point of contention with those of us in the trenches trying to make bike shops better. Thanks.
BTW, I've had '05 Record Carbon and I'd rather ride Ultegra 10 any day. It just plain works and you save enough dough for a whole 'nother bike!
Edited by BikeWise1 (08/16/05 09:12 AM)
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Bikewise1,
I agree that Shimano is trying to do the right thing for the industry, I just think they need to figure out a way to close the loopholes, or the LBS will still suffer. I am sensitive to the fact that my LBS provides quality service, and should be compensated for it. I routinely drive the 15 miles over to the shop and buy things for more money than it would cost me to mail order and overnight ship. I do this because they are good to me, and because I want them to succeed.
I do have my limits however. When I walk into a chain store like Performance and find a $200 - $400 dollar item on sale for $100 less than I can get it at my LBS, I'd be silly not to buy it there. Performance is a big outfit, I'm sure they can't do anything without Shimano finding out about it. Yet Shimano is unwilling or unable to stop this. That's what I mean when I say that their pricing policy is backfiring. If there was some way for them to enforce even pricing, I bet the prices would be lower than what the LBS currently sells them for.
Mike
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Joker
new member
Reged: 07/20/05
Posts: 10
Loc: HK
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Whoa,, kinda getting off the original topic. Anyhoo, your lucky i'm not the web admin guy.
I will add though that the bike industry, actually the whole retail industry is going through major changes due to online shopping. Advertising everything is changing fast, but that's another topic.
Here in Asia pricing for mtb products are kinda crazy, you generally get parts cheaper in HK than in Singapore and in the Phllippines the same parts are even less expensive. Not many if any LBS do online sales here due to the fact that mtb companies do not allow international sales (that's waht the lbs tells me anyway). In this way it prevents one country from selling throughout Asia and thereby undercutting LBS's in each country. Is there a lesson to be learned from this model??
There are so many shopping alternatives for bike parts now I don't see how LBS can survive in some areas. For example you have Online bike shops, Ebay (huge one, they say mtb bikes on Ebay is one of their hottest category items), and local online community bike swaps/sales sites.
What keeps me going back to my LBS is the customer service received. Sometimes I may pay more for bike parts but at the end of the day it's the relationship built up from the LBS that matters to me. After you buy something online how good to you feel taking it down to your LBS to have them install it for you. It's the "one stop shop" scenario that I require. Then again some people want the absolute lowest price and that's fine too but I think they are missing the bigger picture.
I think i'm rambling now....
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I'll make an on-topic post on this subject now. If looks are defined by Bling Factor, then I would say that Ultegra is like the Chevy sedan and Dura-Ace is like the Cadilac. Thing is I did not choose Ultegra on looks. Now if looks are defined as the impression of quality (which is as subjective and in the eye of the beholder as bling) then Ultegra is of lesser quality than Dura Ace. I have a drivetrain that just works. I've put 1200 miles on my bike now and the only adjustment I made to shifting was accidntal when I twisted the wrong adjuster when I wanted to tighten up the brakes. Now as far as price to bling ratio Shimano is not gouging the customer. Their factories are at maximum production. The price is due to supply and demand. That's just good business practise to price what the market will bear for your product.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
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