Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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FSA have recently released their own version of crankset thats soooo similiar to the 10speed Shimano style cranksets. Available in both regular and compact format, this crankset design literally screams identical, even down to the large chainring shape on the regular version and the outboard bearing caps. Naturally the arms are in carbon and the moulding is different than the S company models but the price is great for carbon and sales should be brisk. 
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Its time to ride.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Allan,
Here we are agreeing again. It is getting scary! 
My compact new model will be in any day. I have last year's alloy compact on my Kestrel and I love it. I'm hoping the larger outboard bearings will make another positive difference over the smaller octalink bearings.
Take care.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Hey Lon glad to make your day ...again. From an engineering and design view, the larger outboard bearings should definately make the crank feel stiffer, enough to make it noticable from the first ride, many have said so who used it.
Placing the bearings closer to the crankarm bosses reduces shaft end flex naturally, and by also making the 'pipe' diameter bigger, you can now remove more of the unnessary inner material, therefore its now lighter as well. All of this equates to a lighter unit with less rotational mass, which means you the rider, don't have to expend unnesessary energy spinning the extra dead weight. Octalink is better than square taper because it is an improved design on the square theme BUT the new outboard design is a huge leap forward. I'm sure that there is a small deflection that takes place in the centre of the pipe under hard pedaling, but this is so mimimal compared to the overall benefits, and way less deflection than what octa and square do under similiar pedalling loads.I'll be ordering my FSA SL-K regular crank with a 39/53 soon and giving a report when i put it through its paces.
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Its time to ride.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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I'm not convinced that Octalink is any better than square taper. My Calfee has a Phil Wood square taper BB it I certainly don't notice any flex (and combined with a carbon campy crank it is lighter than the FSA or ShimaNO set-ups). In fact, I think the bearings in the square tapers have less tendency to fry, based on what certain people have told me. I would tend to fall on the side of thinking that it is just another gimmick to get you to buy new stuff.
That being said, IMHO the hottest crankset out there is the new Zipp crankset.It weighs 397 grams (uses ISIS). I'm sure the FSA/ShimaNO outboard bearings are less prone to frying than ISIS, and I have heard that it feels stiffer. But keep in mind that you have to be pretty strong to make any of that stuff flex. But I picked up a Campy Chorus (same as Record but for the decals) crank on eBay for half the price of a Zipp crank, much less the cost of a BB too. I bought a used Dragonfly and it had the Phil Wood TI BB in it (~$250) and it is a feather light thing, smooth, and legendary, so I just decided to stay retro.
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Imagine a Philwood spline drive bottom bracket with outboard bearings...hmmm?
I had a press fit White Industries Ti BB in my Klein and it lasted 5 years until needing a rebuild...remarkable. Take that Shimano !
I find it interesting that the Philwwod BB has been the best one ever made by resources, equivalent to a King headset, and yet hardly anyone has one, so unlike the King headset!? Probably due to the very fact that the do not manufacture a spline drive set up. One very good reason to go with Campy...
Ciao...Mark
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Montaque
new member
Reged: 09/14/04
Posts: 24
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>>>>>> Imagine a Philwood spline drive bottom bracket with outboard bearings...hmmm? <<<<<<<<<
Why?
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Well after a while of trying to locate a crank in the model i wanted with the 175mm arms i finally got my hands on one.
The finish overall on the FSA K-force Mega-Exo model i choose is really good, the carbon is laid up over a an alloy inner piece as most of them are, and the clear coating is really smooth with the decals applied under it.
The right arm has the BB 'axle' pressed in from the outside and it sits up against a stepped lip with splines for grip. I know this to be the case because i can see the splined impressions by the small amount of space around where the carbon does not meet the shaft.
The bearings are almost exact Shimano copies,using the same tool for installation with a distance collar fitted in between the cups as well.
The english BB is made for a 70 shell and if you have a 68 there is an o-ring used to fill the gap on the left side left by the space between the cup and shell. The left arm fits into a spline somewhat like octalink but this time using the full width of the arm for the splined contact area which tightens up against the part where the shaft and spline meet on the BB axle.
The test was great using some flat criterium circuits, some rolling hills and some steep climbs. First off my riding impressions are that this thing is stiff, just like all the riders who us the new Shimano system i found the drive to be more direct and 'firm'.Its hard to describe easily unless you have riden it firsthannd, but compared to my Campy Record crank, the outboard bearings make that setup feel somewhat vague and 'soft' ESPECIALLY when you are out of the saddle in a climb on the big ring.
When on 53/19 on an incline and you get up, the bike feels as though the BB area has been reinforced significantly somehow compared to before. You also notice that the chainrings are hardly deflecting sideways by the front derailleur when pedalling up to speed on big gears.
I'd go so far as to say that if you had a frame that gives you the feeling of being slightly flexy in the BB area, fitting an outboard bearing BB setup would significantly change the way it feels for sure.
I'm quite happy with the FSA K-force crank and await Campys entry into the outboard bearing BB market, hopefully for 2006.
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Its time to ride.
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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After reading the article FSA has on their website regarding the differences between mega-exo and a standard BB I was thinking that maybe it wasn't worth looking into them further. Your actual ride experience tells me something very different.
I also read that Lon rides compact cranks on at least one of his bikes.
I ride compacts on both of mine. Any thoughts on what difference the mega-exo arrangement might make with a compact crank. Thinking about looking at the new FSA SL-K compact set up.
Thanks
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Limace,
You brought up a good valid point with the compact crankset, because besides what anyone tells you there is going to be more lateral flex when on the big ring in a compact, than on its equal model in a non-compact version.
This is because theres more distance between the chainring bolts and the toothed area on the big ring and because of this there is more material to flex.
The best way to help counter this problem is to make the large ring completely solid, but doing that will definately ad some more weight, a big no no, or just stiffen up the initial fixing point as much as possible, in this case the BB junction.
If you think about it this way, when the whole thing sways during pedalling from the BB area, then this movement sets up more swaying in its related parts, such as the arms and chainrings.
I would go so far as to say that given the feel of my FSA K-Force, with its highly webbed large ring like the D/A 10 one, the design is significant enought to notice the improved stiffness, and the Mega-Exo connection is definately the most important factor creating this effect.
If you buy the compact FSA Mega-Exo crank and dont feel an improvement over a square taper design crank from the very first ride, id really be surprised.
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Its time to ride.
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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After reading your thoughts I decided to give the compact mega-exo combination a try. I'm going with the gossamer variation (aluminum crank arms instead of carbon) to sneak in at the cheap end.
I'll let you know how they perform in about a week or so after they arrive and are installed.
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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More of a novelty response than anything, but with spline drive moving to the outboard bearing design, and square drive being a Campy thing, it would be nice to have a super high quality bottom bracket option. Besides, why not?!
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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Having absolutely no background in engineering, what would a BB like that involve?
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Montaque
new member
Reged: 09/14/04
Posts: 24
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“More of a novelty response than anything, but with spline drive moving to the outboard bearing design, and square drive being a Campy thing, it would be nice to have a super high quality bottom bracket option. Besides, why not?!â€
Change? Spline drive? Outboard bearing design?
As is relevant to the Phil bottom bracket: For what objective reason?
Phil bottom brackets are > ULTRA Super High Quality.
They are:
-Virtually Maintenance Free
-Strong
-Stiff
-Simple installation
-SMOOTH
-Proven FUNCTIONALITY AND DURABILITY
After X number of years, replace the bearings, if needed. What do you get? Another X number of years of superb performance.
The problem with Phil is they might be considered BORING.
They lack the HYPE and MARKETING frivolity so rampant in the industry.
They just keep on functioning.
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Change? Spline Drive? Outboard bearing design?
As is relavent to the Philwood bottom bracket: For what objective reason?
I am not sure I am following your quetion, Montague...do you mean choosing a current Philwood BB over a 7800 or FSA or other brand outboard bearing BB?
I agree that Philwood is top notch for quality and thier Timex like ability to flat out just work. But, your comment about them perhaps coming off as BORING, has any meaning. Where exactly are you taking that comment? What does it mean to you?
Ciao...Mark
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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Montague's comments caused me to spend quite a bit of time pondering last night, probably because trying to parse through what is being said and what it actually means is how I make my living.
I take his core comment as stated in bold. He is concerned about the lack of "props" (dangerously trying to guess what the current patios means in English of a certain age) given to what are by agreement very high qualify products. In essence, he decries the lack of marketing expertise shown by this company and the commensurate lack of public recognition given to those who use them.
I have a suggested solution, with apologies to Mr. Swift and his solution to the population problem in Ireland.
The company should change its name to: Ed Wood.
The BB could then be named "BB XBR from Outer Space." They could do a Johnny Depp signature model. My choice would be having his picture from Pirates of the Caribbean stamped on it, but mileages may vary.
Speedplay went this way with their Tyler Hamilton yellow signature pedals, and look where it got them. Why not for a BB?
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Montaque
new member
Reged: 09/14/04
Posts: 24
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Wassup Limace?
Quoting you:
"probably because trying to parse through what is being said and what it actually means is how I make my living"
Wow - better luck next time - don't give up your day job.
As stated:
"The problem with Phil is they might be considered BORING."
As you parse :>) , please remember:
"The most common moods in English include the indicative, the imperative, the interrogative, and the conditional.
Another, rarer mood is the subjunctive mood (indicating a hypothetical state or a state contrary to reality, such as a wish, a desire, or an imaginary situation)."
Wassup, Limace? The verb "might" in the last part of the sentence strongly hints that the situation is hypothetical.
Wassup?
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
So you take from the writer's use of the word "might" that he was only expressing a hypothetical? Sorry, to some BBs and hubs are just boring, although those same people might go on at length about cables. It would take an extreme degree of self-control to use "might be," "boring" and "cables" in the same sentence. I doubt even a master of the brilliant understatement could do it without at least some degree of self-loathing.
Cables? Well, okay, boring. But never BBs. I don't know. Perhaps a tough sell in some quarters. [Do you really think using "perhaps" here indicates the hypothetical nature of the statement?]
However, I was willing to concede the quality of Phil Wood products. No skin off my nose. The problem expressed, it seemed to me, was that the general public was failing to pay proper respect to that quality. (Go figure. Never happened in America before.) Or was putting BORING in all initial caps the result of a stuck key which slipped through spell check? Context, context, context.
So, my modest proposal was offered only and solely as a helpful business plan suggestion for the Phil Wood company. Clearly all they need is a bit of marketing help. The product does not need to speak for itself and can't anyway. It is, after all, just a piece of metal. However, if successful think what the campaign might be able to achieve for cables!
A note on local patois. In this region wassup is pronounced more like whasuup. Out here wassup would come out sounding like catsup. Why bring one of Dan Quayle's favorite vegetables into this.
Your obedient servant
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Montaque
new member
Reged: 09/14/04
Posts: 24
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WOW! A slug fest -
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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Nah, we're being way too polite. Neither of us has claimed we are being demonized yet. (See Calfee thread.)
Is there hope?
P.S. saw my first picture of a Phil Wood hub the other day. He's got the "Phil" right there on it already. Just change the script a little and ready to go. Opportunity here....
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Montaque
new member
Reged: 09/14/04
Posts: 24
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Ouh La! Limace Fete!
Definition of LIMACE:
[NF] (SLUG) any of various terrestrial gastropods having an elongated slimy body and no external shell.
Definition of
1. [n] slugs.
Synonyms
family_Limacidae
Related terms
Part of Gastropoda
Contains Limax slug
Type of mollusk_family
Advice: Sleep late and don't drink the bier in the p'butter jar lid!
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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Well (one must imagine the same tone used on the Bare Naked Ladies live album for their use of the word), what' the problem?
Point the first. Oregon, slugs. Slugs, Oregon. It's not my fault the Legislature hasn't gotten around to recognizing the true state herbivore. Also much easier to house train than beavers.
Point the second. No one's ever been accused of being a "cheese eating surrender slug."
Point the third. If properly handled, porcelein tea cups (imported from Japan) actually work much better than pb lids, although you get to the heart of the matter (unfortunately much bloodier imagery than "your slime's right on," yes?) when you mention pb. There are two dominant types of the majestic slug present here in their natural habitat. The "peanut butter" and the "jelly."
Point the fourth. Your tongue really does go numb when you lick a slug. Be my guest. Enjoy.
Bon Appetit
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 721
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
Limace wrote:
.....Point the fourth. Your tongue really does go numb when you lick a slug. Be my guest. Enjoy.
Bon Appetit
Now that's funny! Being a native of Western Washington (Olympic National Forest area) I vividly remember (I think) licking a slug on our front lawn. Many years later (closer to a 100 than I would admit) I still get the tweaks when I think about that episode.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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Slug licking is a right of passage up here. But for those who have not been brought up in the culture, be sure to lick the bottom only. The alternative? YMMV, but just wrong to those in the know.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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And to think the "Sage" Dave Thompson had the nerve to call me sick when he didn't like some of the jokes I forwarded! This slug licking sounds like something from Fear Factor!    
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 721
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Lon: You have to be there. You also have to be a curious 5-year old, wondering what that shiny thing crawing on your front lawn is. Then if you do what I did, you will NEVER eat gummi candy that is longer than 3 inches!
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Limace sorry to interupt the slug licking competiton here, but you were supposed to get back to the forum with a test report on the FSA gossamer compact.
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Its time to ride.
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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It's still sitting in its box. LBS says a week in the shop to install (their normal service backlog). The bad weather has kept me riding on the trainer often enough that I haven't wanted to take the trainer bike in.
That would leave me with only my Calfee. She which shall never be tainted by the foul touch of a mass market magno trainer, must be obeyed, etc., etc.
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
Dave_Thompson wrote:
Lon: You have to be there. You also have to be a curious 5-year old, wondering what that shiny thing crawing on your front lawn is. Then if you do what I did, you will NEVER eat gummi candy that is longer than 3 inches!
OK, my slug stories with no bicycle references.
Lived in Tacoma, Washington, during/after college.
Once I slept on my friend's deck in the boonies outside Olympia after a long evening of many many micro brews. When I woke up in the moring there were glutinous tracks, trails, all over, covering the deck...and my sleeping bag. I must've been sound asleep enough, still enough, that they had the time to go up and over me. Many times. My sleeping bag was covered in their trails.
Yes, they are as big as a banana. Seen them even bigger in the rain forests out on the pennisula.
And even better, from the chapter of Amazing and Unbelievable Coincidences: Once I was watching National Geographic or whatever with future wife and a friend. It was about slugs. It showed them mating. They curl together in a slimy bubbly goo coating and hang from a thread of it. We were sitting there saying "No way. They're too heavy. The slime string would break." Etc. The show ended and we retired to my deck for many micro brews and to watch the water. And what did we find above the deck? Yes! Two slugs, mating, curled together in a slimy, bubbly goo coating hanging from a thread of it from a branch. Right there above the deck! I could describe it but would probably not be asked back here.
I swear on the life of all my bikes,
true story
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