PsyDoc
friend
Reged: 01/14/04
Posts: 37
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The German magazine did a test of Dragonfly Pro, but the magazine did not give it good marks. Does anyone know German? I would like to know what they did not like about it.
http://www.weightweenies.starbike.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5582
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ghostzapper
friend
Reged: 01/23/05
Posts: 29
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In a nutshell they said the Dragonfly with fork as tested had what they deemed excessive flex in the headtube and lateral flex in the fork creating a bike which would be more suited to what they deemed touring type of riding than racing involving high speed descents. They discussed how these conditions would cause instability at speed. Whether this is true or plays itself out in real life one does not know.
TOUR has always tried to apply laboratory measurements to how a bike would ride in real life which may or may not have validity.
It would be nice to see Craig Calfees response to this claim by TOUR.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Since you could read it...it seemed the chart they had for Calfee and Colnago that Calfee fared better. Is that correct? I wasn't sure of what they measured but I guessed at some.
The fork comments are insignificant since Calfee doesn't make the forks. You can get any kind of fork you want. If you want it to say Calfee they will refinish it.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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But Craig builds a bike as stiff as you want it. It's NOT inherent in the design that Calfees are not stiff enough. I have read enough articles by owners impressions of the ride qualities that I discount a review that says the bike is not stiff enough. It's more design philosophy that determines what the geometry of a bike is. I have not read a single article or rewiew that mentions any kind of stability issue with Calfee bikes. In fact, most who ride them say they are very stable on fast downhill rides.
There is no mystique in bicycle geometry. It's all design.
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ghostzapper
friend
Reged: 01/23/05
Posts: 29
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The Colnago tested appreciably better than the Dragonfly from a headtube stiffness measure. The only 2 frames they tested which approached the Dragonfly headtube stiffness measure were the Look 585 (slightly better) and the Orbea Orca (slightly worse).
Again, whether these measures really mean anything in real life is debateable.
A CAT 1 on our team has been on a Look 585 for a few months and has had no stability or wobble issues. TOUR tested the Look 585 framesets fork as the equivalent of a wet noodle.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
ghostzapper wrote:
The Colnago tested appreciably better than the Dragonfly from a headtube stiffness measure.
I wasn't referring to just that one area. There is a pentagon shown for each bike. It has 5 points given a numerical rating to 15 it seems. The Calfee is all 15 and the Colnago is 4, 12, 11, 7 and 15. What do they refer to?
The key point as was stated this is a custom frame. You can have your tubing made as stiff as you want it. There very well could be a point however where it is stiff for stiffness's sake and not something that changes real world performance. I say this since your friend on the Look is fine. I've done over 60 mph on my Fly and it was rock solid. I've hit 58 on my Luna.
Thanks for the translations. 
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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It is just like with cranks. Maybe the Dura-Ace model tests the stiffest, but can you flex a Truvativ Rouler Carbon Crank, which tested not nearly as stiff (according to Velonews).
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ghostzapper
friend
Reged: 01/23/05
Posts: 29
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The whole issue of applying the lab results to the real world seems to have little merit, especially with a custom frame like Calfee.
I would place even less emphasis on an "overall" assessment of a Calfee Dragonfly against the Colnago per TOUR lab results. To me they are trying in vain to easily quantify that which isn't easily quantified.
I didn't pay much attention to their overall results or conclusions. Trying to assess other aspects such as comfort is even more subjective.
If stiffness were the key factor in how well a bike descends, the very worst aluminum frames from the early 90's would be the best descenders. Most who have ridden those frames know how silly a proposition that is.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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It ocurred to me as I was thinking that certain kinds of flex are not bad at all, good things, actually. Consider vertical flex like on a fine steel fork. That shock-absorbing flex makes roads less jarring to your wrists.
Now, for lateral flex. Considering the forces exerted on a bike, lateral flex is induced by pedaling force. Most of us have experienced frame flex when hammering and we have not had stability issues as a result of the flex. For stability in fast downhill riding it's all about steering axis and trail. Flex is not an issue because very little side force is applied to a bike by going downhill fast even in tight turns.
The problem, as I see it, with some tests is that the assumption that the characteristic being tested is important from a rider's standpoint. Also of note, rider perception does not correlate well with actual scientific measurements of flex and geometry. All diamond-frame bikes are pretty stiff vertically (they are triangle shapes after all). Any vertical flex comes primarily from the fork, not the frame.
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ghostzapper
friend
Reged: 01/23/05
Posts: 29
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Correct.
As a sidenote it would be neat to know how many Calfee Tetra Pro and Dragonfly owners order their frames with the stiff or super stiff tubeset option and what size frame they are riding.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Insightdriver: You are bordering on blasphemy by announcing the flex may not be a bad thing. The Marketing God of NoFlex will strike you down. An interesting statement on flex is posted by framebuilder Dave Kirk (http://www.kirkframeworks.com/Flex.htm) Dave's bonefides also include personally building the 7/11 Tour de France frames while he was at Serotta, among many other notable accomplishments.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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What is that quality that steel riders like in their frames if not flex?
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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I think most steel riders would say 'feel', a direct connection to the bike and the road. I've had 3 Calfees, my wife still has hers, and I think Calfees are the most steel-like CF bike out there. I've not had experience with Parlee, but hear they are similar in 'feel'.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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