Pintsized
journeyman
Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
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Hey y'all,
The Ksyrium elites are just heavier than I want...I can't bring myself to go for them yet. I'm now looking into the Velomax Ascent ii and the Am Classic sprint 350s (both come in the 650 c wheels, which is all I ride). Both come in that size. Does anyone have any input on what to think of either? Mr Fly the Bike is right; DT has no 650 c road rim. A pity. The LBS guy is looking also into what he could build for me on a DT 240s hub, maybe a Sun rim, he thinks.
During the season (when it's dry), the Hed Alps will live on the bike part of the time, like for flatter rides, and these new acquisitions for the hillier rides. I use these for racing flat races and for training flat routes. I plan to use the new ones, whatever they are, for hilly training and hilly races. So they will get more miles than a race-only wheel.
Does anyone have any insights to offer?
I think the tiebreaker for me will be which hub seems to be best able to handle lots of miles. I think it'd be harder for me to damage a wheel by going over a pothole or something, even if its a lighter wheel. Of course, in a crash, which I think is likelier than routine damage, all bets are off, whatever I buy..or so I am willing to assume.
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PsyDoc
friend
Reged: 01/14/04
Posts: 37
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What about Mike at oddsandendos.com? He has built lots of wheels for very satisfied customers...from weightweenies, to racers, to the average joe. He built up a set recently with 240's for a guy and price was right at $500. Give him a call...it's toll free: 1-866-292-0124.
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bigdeal
new member
Reged: 03/11/05
Posts: 8
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I have a set of AC 350 with Sapim spokes, 24f/24r. They're lighter than light, seriously, they blow most handbuilts out by a pound if not more. Best of all, they're bombproof. I've put over 2k miles on my set, both smooth and choppy pavement and they're straight as an arrow. ->
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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Ah. The lovely smell of the handbuilts vs. non-handbuilts debate. I can tell you that the 240s hubs are very nice. I use a Sun Mistral on my fixie and I think that it is very responsive. Some people I durability issues with those rims, but if you're a small person I think you'd be fine. American Classic has a fine reputation as well, but you're going to pay more...
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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If you can spend $900 the "new" Rolf Wheels are awesome. Rolf along with some Trek folks left Trek when his contract was up. There is now a true Rolf again. I'll list the Web Site but call also. You talk to one of the owners. It is so much like Calfee it is uncanny.
They only make one wheel in a 650 so you could spend a little less on a Rolf. However when you see how they are built... All hand built in Eugene Oregon. They use a made for them Sapim spoke with special wrench flats to run incredible tension in the spokes. They say the rim usually has to bend before they go out of true due to the spoke tension. HUBS...White Industries...need I say more...USA also of course. The rims are their own design and are butted to reduce weight. They have no rider weight limit since the wheels are so strong.
All that and they 1220 grams in a 650 as a clincher! I have a pair on order.
They are growing slowly and sell only through bike shops.
That is why you don't see them in any catalogs. Just like Calfee for years they want controlled growth, high quality and quality control.
I got turned on to them by a friend his Tri riding brother bought a pair. He absolutely loves them.
If you rode a 700 they have some other wheels as well.
Everybody I know who have AC wheels like them. BUT within the industry their hubs have a reputation of seizing up suddenly. It doesn't happen a lot but it still does. I believe the front does the most and some people feel it the size of the bearing could be part of it. Their hub is very small in diameter. I had a friend in a crit where someone had one seize up. The results were not pretty.
AC people PLEASE don't flame me for saying the above. It is true whether you have heard it or not. It is far from common knowledge and in terms of percentage of hubs effected it is small.
Good luck. Rolf Wheels
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Pint Sized,
If you like the Rolfs, You will love the AC's. They are as light, and are easier to true or repair. This may not be an issue for you since you could probably get the Rolf factory guys to do it for you.
The Hubs are the same, except for the differential flange. I once ran into Rolf at a Bike Gallery clearance sale in Portland, and he spent a great deal of time bragging about the internals of the "Rolf Custom Designed Hub". When asked, he admitted the Rolf hub is a standard AC hub except for the custom spoke flanges.
They are great hubs. I have a pair of Rolf Elans, and I am very impressed with the hubs. The rims however are so light that the sleeve used to bond the seam seriously unbalances the rim. My LBS had to resort to putting lead weights under the rim tape to make the problem go away. Other than that, the wheels are very nice, although I have to question spending so much money on lightweight wheels that I have to put lead weights (at least 40g per wheel) on to make them ridable. According to my LBS, Rolf was very indignant about the issue. This was when the wheels first came out, maybe they have remedied the situation by now.
Anyway, I would go with the AC wheels. They are less expensive, quite light, and easier to maintain and repair.
Mike
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Pintsized
journeyman
Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
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Hey, Lon, Thanks. I looked at the Rolf website briefly. Those 650c Elans are very pretty looking (ok, yes it matters, I'm a girl  ). Let's overlook the price issue for the moment. First and mainly, I have always been uneasy about the paired up spokes. Roger, the Rolf FAQ and the lateral this and that explanation. Perhaps that is all true (ahem, pardon the pun). But to me the bottom line is, what have folks who have owned this style experienced? Do they really not break more often than the other kind? Somehow they look so fragile....
I guess this is an old discussion for some of you. But what's the 2005 version of it?
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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What Lon says about the durability of the Rolfs is true. My Elans, light and unbalanced as they are, were as true as any wheelset I have ever seen when they were new. 18 months and a couple of thousand miles later, they haven't budged. I had the same experience with a set of the original Rolfs in 1998.
Comfort-wise, they are somewhat harsher than most conventionally spoked wheels. The deep section models will pound you on rough pavement. The Elans are significantly more comfortable, but still not as comfortable as a conventionally spoked wheel.
mike
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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I have a set of Rolf Vigor's, 700, which have survived the internet age. I'm not sure of the age but they were acquired as used on eBay this time last year and were old them but in "good" shape. They showed that they had been ridden. Then I rode them alot more.
Absolutely no trouble with true, just walked them into the lbs today to check up for the season. Only comment is that they get "musical" in corners, or as the bike shop mech said "they are pretty loud wheels."
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Mike,
Good comments. He may have used AC hubs at one time but White makes his hubs now. His original hubs were Hugi way back when.
Your lead weight comment is a little scary. I'm not buying them for an everyday wheel so I'm being daring. My Fly has a 1400 gram and change tubulars...32 spokes...King hubs etc. that I'll be riding most times.
Pintsized...I have a set of Shimano 7700's which are a paired spoke design. Only one one time have they needed to be trued and only the rear wheel. Their design is very similar to Rolf's. I heard through the grapevine that they dropped the paired spokes not by choice but rather patent infringment. Before I had the wheels they were Saturn race wheels so they have had their share of riding. Until I had these I would have felt the same way you do about that design. I had a racer/mechanic/shop manager along at a flea market who told me they were a very strong wheel and his opinion is always right on so I bought them.
Have fun wheel shopping. That is all part of the fun of bikes. 
P.S. Pintsized aren't you intrigued at least a little by a 1220 gram clincher?
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Mike
contributor
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Oregon
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Lon,
The hub change to White Industries must be very recent since their website still shows the AC hubs, and all the ones at my LBS are still AC. White also makes great hubs, but they are NOISY. Now I know you love the buzz of your Kings, but this is a clackety-clackety ratcheting noise, not a heavenly buzz  Anyway, I'm kinda sorry they changed since I've never had any issues with them, they are very quiet, and they spin seemingly forever. The front bearings are microscopic as you say. I guess time will tell.
mike
P.S. Before you take them home, put the rear wheel on a bike(preferably not yours), put the bike in a repair stand, put it in high gear, pedal until the wheel is spinning at ~ 25 mph. If the bike doesn't shake itself off the repair stand or self-destruct, they must have fixed the balance problem. As far as I know this was only a problem on the Elans. They put the seam sleeve next to the stem hole to strengthen the rim where the tube's stem comes out, but the combination of the tube stem and the sleeve totally messes up the balance since the rim is so light. I would like to think they have solved this problem by now, but as I said in my previous post, they refused to acknowledge that this is issue (per my LBS). Funny thing is, Rolf sent the lead weights to the LBS. Now why would he do this if there was no issue? 
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Rolf used the AC hub until last year. Then they moved to WI hubs. Rolf was having trouble with the AC hub bearing reliability. Apparently AC was having the same issues because I think their website was saying how they redesigned their hubs this year. Hmmm...
I have a set of Rolf Elans as a second wheelset. I'm 185 lbs and have no issue with them in about 1,000 miles. A good friend of mine, also a Tetra Pro rider uses them as his only wheelset and has about 6,000 miles on his since new. He has had no problems at all. Another buddy rides the Vigors. He is a 220lb masher. He's had good luck with his too. 3 cases....FWIW. We all live in Eugene so...support the local economy.
The Rolf guys are fanatical about wheels and take a lot of pride in their work. Not saying others don't but they are a pleasure to do business with.
FYI, Rolf is testing out their CF deep dish wheels this winter. I expect this wheelset to be available next year.
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Oh yeah, I don't seem to have issues with balance but I bought mine last summer. Maybe they remedied the problem because my Calfee buddy, he did put a tiny 10g (not 40g) weight to counterbalance the wheels and it worked perfectly.
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Pintsized
journeyman
Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
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Lon, Well, yeah, I was pretty impressed by a 1220 gr clincher. That is amazing, I agree. But, to be honest, anything that seems to have a track record and that is 1400 gr or less is probably going to keep me happy. The AC and Velomax (now Easton, apparently) are 1300-something and that'd do. Anything I THINK that is what I believe. (Hmm. What is the diff
Gee, I bet my students wish I graded papers like I grade wheels. "OK, kid, you missed 10 points/100 and the other guy missed 16/100. Heck, why count beans? You both get an A." Extra credit: Is there a difference between believing a proposition and thinking that you do?
Thank you all for so much input. This is super!
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Pintsized
journeyman
Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
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Lon, Well, yeah, I was pretty impressed by a 1220 gr clincher. That is amazing, I agree. But, to be honest, anything that seems to have a track record and that is 1400 gr or less is probably going to keep me happy. The AC and Velomax (now Easton, apparently) are 1300-something and that'd do as far as weight is concerned. Anyhow, I THINK that is what I believe/
Gee, I bet my students wish I graded papers like I grade wheels. "OK, kid, you missed 10 points/100 and the other guy/gal missed 16/100. Heck, why count beans? You both get an A." Extra credit: Is there a difference between believing a proposition and thinking that you believe it?
Thank you all for so much input. This is super!
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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I had a pair of the original Rolf Vector Pro Tubular wheels that I bought when they were the hot new wheel that the USPS team was using. Right before Mavic released the Ksyrium. So much for the history lesson. This was before Trek bought him out. First, I found the wheels 14f/16r to be exteremly aerodynamic. But since the rim wasn't deep dish I have since found Zipps to be faster, even with a lot more spokes 20f/24r. More spokes makes the wheel easier to handle IMHO, especially in crits, which I do a lot of. Second, if you hit one of those paired spoke wheels real hard, exactly between where the spokes are, you WILL GET A FLAT SPOT. It took me about five years to do it, but I did, and so did a friend of mine with those wheels. So that is their Achillies heel. That said, I think he builds good-great wheels. And, when I needed the rebuilt for the reason mentioned above, Trek did it for about $130 which isn't so bad. If I wanted to spend ~1k on clicher wheels, I would certainly have to consider the Rolf Vigors or Elans. Only thing was my shop guy said that you may have to adjust the brake pad reach because it is a little different than with other wheels. But that isn't a deal breaker if you like the wheels a lot. If you're planning to use them as pit wheels (which I guess you're not) that could be a problem, though. Brain dump complete. Thank you. I don't think you'd go wrong with either AC or Rolf, both seem to be fine companies.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Vax...thanks for the feedback. Not being a delicate flower myself I'm happy to hear they are holding up so well. The all USA is something I really like as well.
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