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dbrk
contributor
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Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
More Ride Impressions: Z1 new
#1568 - 03/01/04 02:47 AM (66.82.9.23)

Spring has not yet truly sprung here in western New York and it was chilly both Saturday and Sunday but I put in about 70 miles on the new Hampsten Parlee Z1. Mine's a custom built to take advantage of the basic dimensions of a 60cm for the front end, add 2d of slope to eliminate the ht ext (thank you, Parlee), lengthen the chainstays, lower the bb a bit, and generally turn the bike into a very, very stable but nimble fast-bike that sacrifices no comfort. In my little world, the more comfortable the bike, the faster and longer I can go. I never sacrifice one for the other. A "regular" Parlee would be a bit too much the race bike for me so these relatively minor changes brought the bike more in line with the relaxed sta and lower/longer profile that helps keep the ride on the calm, stable side. The Alpha sub3 fork is stellar and I feel very at ease lifting my hands from the bars under any circumstances. The bike tracts beautifully but for me a great bike must descend as if it could take you down the hill all by itself. I like a bike that wants to stay quiet up front and keep me relaxed in the cockpit. I also like a bike that tends to stay up and hold the line, so I prefer a more steady, less responsive front end (not too, too quick, thank you). This bike does just that. In comparison to a Calfee it is longer, lower, and far more stable. In comparison to the C40 that I have it is more solid and more balanced. On this bike because the saddle bar drop is about 2-3cm and not more, I can push my weight (butt) back and push into the drops in a position that is more like what most people have on their hoods. The effect is a bike that feels whole from bow to stern, a bike that moves as if the whole thing were moving at once, like the wheels are in concert. It's a very fun, comforting effect. The bike also wants to zoom when you stomp and feels lithe and happy on the calms, no lag. The frame itself is not much like my other experiences with carbon, all of which felt more wooden than this.

The bike is likely to get a lot of miles as the roads here dry out (I live at the end of a muddy dirt road) and the white salty dust flies from the pavement. I'm unlikely to take out a perfect steel bike under such conditions, so I usually ride ti or carbon in the spring (steel all summer). So far, this is a really beautiful bicycle with everything to commend. I much prefer it to the C40 which is now expendable (for sale!! 58cm, Mapei WCS colors, perfect!!). I think this one is truly a keeper.

Kudos to Steve Hampsten and to Parlee for their incredibly helpful, easy ways, and for making excellent suggestions. Everything about the purchase of this bike was a real pleasure---and that's not always the case, as we know. Hampsten made all the difference because it was like dealing directly with LBS and the builder at once. Steve even had the decals (blue) made that I wanted...so it's just the way I asked.

Hampsten Parlee has impressed me mightily.

dbrk


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vaxn8r
contributor


Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: dbrk]
#1635 - 03/07/04 06:04 AM (24.21.47.148)

What are you doing riding this thing? Where are the photos? Man...priorities!

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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: vaxn8r]
#2307 - 04/09/04 08:13 PM (66.82.9.35)

Today the wind was westerly a steady 15mph with some real gusts. I rode north-south mostly because it was also pretty chilly out there. The Finger Lakes of western New York just don't let you ride flat so a solid 50 miles is a good ride around here. (I rode last week up in Rochester and it was sooooo easy comparison!!)

I can't really gush enough about the Z1. Let it be said that I am not really a fan of carbon the way I am of steel or even titanium. I have owned more than a few carbon bikes---back to the old Cadex and more than a few C40s, each one trying to refine the fit. I just sold my last C40 and never again shall go down that road. The Parlee/Hampsten is just so far ahead of the Colnago it's not even fair to compare. The ride is more lively, smoother, more stable by yards, and the overall fit of the bike is beyond compare. Serious kudos to Steve Hampsten and the Parlee folks for taking carbon to a level of custom fitting that is just superb. This isn't a tweaked bike so much as a true custom and it's so, so hard sometimes to convey to bike builders that you want a tall front end but still a bike that is balanced, handles properly, and carves a turn right. People think that because you don't want to crouch down into your bars you must be a Phred or have back issues or be too old to ride fast, all that nonsense, none of which is true in my case (though I might be a Phred, that's okay). But this bike is such a fantastic fit that every bike after this one needs to match its fit. (I ordered a steel IF CJ using these precise numbers.) But even more surprising is how much I like the carbon---and I repeat that I am a skeptic and not sold on lightlightlight or other stuff.

And just to be clearer still one of my VERY favorite aspects of the bike is the pump peg. I use a black Zefal HP (a great pump) and I am worry free. I positively hate (not too strong a word) using C02 cartridges and a full size pump is only about a zillion times better than one of those crappy (all of them are crappy) mini-pumps. I have to say that I've never gone near a Calfee for this very reason, trite as that may be, but actually more so for the fit. The Parlee/Hampsten doesn't use a ht extension just a tiny tiny bit of slope and it's so darn sensible and well proportioned.

Today with the wind at my bike I was humming down the hill towards our house. Easily 50mph: the bike was straight, calm, steady, perfect. That is really a delight to report.

dbrk


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DGauthier
new member


Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 21
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 Thanks Dbrk new [Re: dbrk]
#2309 - 04/09/04 08:55 PM (65.162.12.103)

I don't think I've ever read such a delightfully informative-while-being-impassioned post.

I too am not a big carbon fan, but you spark my curiosity about Parlee's plastic bikes. Someday carbon fiber will better metal in *every way*, but that day isn't here yet. Your post makes me feel like that day is just around the corner.


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1centaur
journeyman
*****

Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: dbrk]
#2310 - 04/09/04 11:14 PM (24.34.152.94)

Two question dbrk - one a clarification and the other curiosity:

1) You say in an earlier post that the Parlee is more stable than a Calfee, and in your more recent post that you have never gone near a Calfee. As a Calfee owner pondering a Parlee and wondering whether any differences are worth the money, I wonder exactly what your experiences with a Calfee are - have you ridden one (which model) but wouldn't go near them in terms of buying them? When you talk about other CF bikes being wooden, which I take to mean highly damping of vibration, does that include a Calfee, and if so was it one with the extra stiff tubeset (which I have and feels way more like steel than an OCLV 120)?

2) You seem very happy with the fitting, but Hampsten's across the country from you and Peabody, Mass is a significant jaunt. Who did the fitting that you like so much?

Thank you.

--------------------
"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong


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dbrk
contributor
****

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: 1centaur]
#2311 - 04/10/04 12:58 AM (66.82.9.22)

I may be unfair to Calfee since I base my experience on but one long ride on a Tetra, a 58 which was waaaay too small for me. Many 58s are not too, too small but I had the distinct impression that I could go up to a 60 and still feel like the front end was too short. There is no way I can fit on a Calfee. (Just like there is no way I can really fit on a modern Colnago or DeRosa, but old ones are different, I can fit those...) Calfees have short head tubes. Add 1.5cm of ht extension and they are sorta' not too too short and that's as far as I can go. I found the Calfee ride too to be, well, like an American crit bike: quick handling, direct, one requiring my attentions, happy to turn and carve, quick to accelerate. What I didn't like was that I felt like I needed to be too attentive and honestly the ride did not meet my idea of comfort. Sure, smooth like carbon but I have already said that carbon is not my ideal. I dunno, I think it has a ways to go before it feel like metal. So when I said that I wouldn't go near a Calfee what I mean was near the purchase of a Calfee because I feel like there is no way I can get one to fit me and because the ride is too quick, too much like a crit bike. Others love their Calfees and more power to them! I have not the slightest notion that my body or preferences somehow should be others!! The world is large enough for differences, especially ones this trivial.

Why did I go to Hampsten when they are all the way out in Seattle and Parlee is a few hours away? Honestly, it's simple. I am a fit by numbers guy. I know what I like and just how I want to fit on the bike. What I need to convey to the builder are my real preferences and these easily come out with numbers. I've been involved with builders who just don't see it my way and try to change the build, usually making the bike smaller. I politely listen, try again to explain the logic, experience, and multitude of errors I've made to get to the point where I am and either we connect...or we don't. I have no qualms saying to any well-regarded builder that after a conversation with them about fit and design that I am not their boy. Call me arrogant but I confess to have bought dozens (no kidding...dozens!) of bikes on this or that one's advice and the fit is all wrong. FINALLY I sorta' hit my stride a few years back, largely by studying old French bikes, Daniel Rebour's Le Petit Livre, and listening to Grant Petersen, Mike Barry, and Ernest Csuka. I then take the principles of the taller French fit (which creates a perfectly fine "race" or fast bike) and apply them to modern bikes. You can't just size up since that may cause a poor pedal/knee position and other matters related to balance and handling. The whole design has to move with the notion of the taller front front end and hence less bar to saddle drop. A basic principle is to make the drops _much_ more useable and not resort to the STI/Ergo era principle that the hoods are the dominant position. How often do most people ride in their drops? Less than they could if they were fit on a bike where the drops were not so, so low.

I can go on about fit, but basically there are a few things to keep in mind. First, the _vast_ majority of American bike builders come through the traditions of Italian race frames and then adopt influences that come from modern racing (lots of aerodynamic positioning, etc.). These ideas have little to nothing to do with my bicycle riding, my body, an optimal position on the bicycle for me. (I am perfectly flexible, btw, and have no physical ailments that prevent me from moving easily on the bicycle.)
I maintain that _most_ recreational riders (I mean even weekend racers) would be far, far better off on a bike that fit more like what I call French fit than Italian racers. Second, most modern bike builders are clueless about the histories and traditions of fit and tell you that there is one optimal way to fit a bike, viz., their way. This is tripe, leaving aside that it is historically ignorant. Mention Herse, Singer, and the like and most look at you cross-eyed. Most riders know less than this! Last, the bike industry wants to sell you what the racers ride, more or less, because that is the latestgreatest and folks want to "look like them." The industry isn't dumb about marketing because they are selling bikes. But the bikes they are selling don't fit as well as they could. Just look at most headtube lengths on most "race" bikes and you will likely have either huge bar/saddle drops or tons of spacers, riser stems, and other truly foolish compromises.

I rant but when I dealt with Hampsten, they got my point totally. They understood tradition. They actually comprehended that there is more than one way to ride a bike fast and for fun. Look at their Strada Bianca, for example. It is much taller, more relaxed, more comfort oriented than most bikes (but for Rivendells and a handful of others) But I went further than the Strada Bianca, towards the complete "French fit" (my term but rooted in studying the tradition of Herse, Singer, Rebour, etc.) and Hampsten also got that: he understood that a modern bike could easily be built this way. He understood that these builders were wise and that they were simply offering a different notion. I was confident that the bike would be handsomely proportioned with clean lines, without compromises like long headtube extensions, riser stems, smokestack spacers, and that we could achieve a French style fast bike fit that brought modern materials and parts into a frame that is essentially the same design as a 1965 Rene Herse or a 1955 Alex Singer, you pick. Modern bikes can be designed the "old way" without the slightest bit of change but for materials and parts. These designs emphasize comfort as a feature of speed. They are not as aerodynamic, not well-suited to compete with racers today and the positions they assume. I don't ride like that and manage to keep up with the local racers just fine on my larger frame. I see no disadvanage since I'm not racing at any higher level and mostly I'm just riding for fun, be it fast or slow.

dbrk


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vaxn8r
contributor


Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: dbrk]
#2334 - 04/11/04 03:14 AM (67.170.172.233)

DBRK, you said: "Calfees have short head tubes. Add 1.5cm of ht extension and they are sorta' not too too short and that's as far as I can go."

I think you have that backwards. Parlees have really short HT's. in fact Calfee's are some of the longest standard HT's out there and part of that is the designed 2 deg upward TT slant. Check it out. In my size Parlee, the HT's would be 13.5-14.5 cm.---that is short. The same size std frame of a Calfee the corresponding HT's would run 15-16cm. Not to mention, because of the gussets, adding a 1 cm HT extension on a Calfee looks like it belongs on there in stead of the "smoke stack" look on most bikes.


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JamesC
new member


Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 19
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: dbrk]
#4361 - 10/17/04 04:37 AM (67.1.14.229)

Quote:

dbrk wrote:
... The whole design has to move with the notion of the taller front front end and hence less bar to saddle drop. A basic principle is to make the drops _much_ more useable and not resort to the STI/Ergo era principle that the hoods are the dominant position. How often do most people ride in their drops? Less than they could if they were fit on a bike where the drops were not so, so low.






much like Rivendale's philosophy, then? I'd really love to test ride one of those. I saw one on the Torture 10,000 Century ride in Oregon and the rider seemed pretty darn happy.


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ghostzapper
friend


Reged: 01/23/05
Posts: 29
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: vaxn8r]
#5430 - 03/18/05 03:01 PM (65.195.10.12)

I agree completely vazn8r. If you look at the stock geometries of a Calfee versus a Parlee, Calfees are definitely taller stock frames for a given effective toptube and seatube angle.

In addition, I'm not sure how one could say a 1 ride testridden Calfee Tetra is a crit like ride when the bike you are comparing it with was custom built by Parlee with elongated chainstays? Calfees offer full customization including the lengthening of chainstays. It seems like apples have been compared to oranges.

If I took a custom Calfee with his standard 2 degree toptube slope and had Craig build a "tall" frame, it would dwarf a stock Parlee as far as being a "taller" frame for any given effective toptube length.

Comparing stock Calfee geometry with stock Parlee geometry, the Calfee wins for having "taller", more Pegoretti like standard road geometry versus a stock Parlee, and Calfees frames can be made to handle less "crit like" through wheelbase and chainstay length changes offered in his custom program.

Pegoretti is a big advocate of using HT extensions to build "taller" road frames. On a stock Calfee with some HT extension (which he offers on stock frames) you can pretty much mirror Pegoretti type road geometry. Try approaching Pegoretti road geometry on a stock Parlee?

Edited by ghostzapper (03/18/05 03:43 PM)


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Doug_at_PARLEE
new member
*****

Reged: 03/10/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Northborough, MA
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: ghostzapper]
#5433 - 03/18/05 05:19 PM (68.163.191.122)

Can I ask a question?

This is really a marketing question, because we've had this debate internally, and since this thread brings it back up...

Basically, here at PARLEE we build custom Z1 frames. We can't build *anything*, but we have a decent range of customization available. For example, we can do a 2 degree sloping top tube similar to a Calfee. We can also drop the BB, lengthen the chainstays, change head or seat angles, etc.

My question is, should we just not have a sizing chart on the website? Should we have different sizing charts to show a less "crit" geometry?

I've always wondered if we sometimes loose a sale because people "don't like our geometry", when I could build them a great bike to match the geometry that they are looking for.

Or, are we just not explaining our custom options well enough on the website? (a good possibility).

I'm open to ideas, both on or off the list.

Thanks for your input,

Doug

--------------------
Doug Foster
PARLEE Cycles
doug@parleecycles.com


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RDP
captain


Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 245
Loc: Kansas
Re: Parlee Website new [Re: Doug_at_PARLEE]
#5440 - 03/18/05 10:12 PM (214.13.200.249)

I do not think the sizing chart matters since you offer custom geometry on your flagship model but what does matter is your website...when will you update it with new pictures and layouts of your bikes?

regards,
RDP

--------------------
It is about the bike.....BikeFanClub Forums


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Lon
sage
*****

Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Parlee Website new [Re: RDP]
#5443 - 03/18/05 11:36 PM (68.233.219.25)

I agree with the last person's post. Having been on the Calfee forum since its inception I know he does the same thing.

I would make it very clear with WORDS what you can do. It would be very similar to your posting.

Usually if someone is into that level of customization they know what angles they want etc. I remember one guy has his Calfee built with the exact dimensions of his Merckx.

Just describe all you can do and make it stand out on the site.

Take care.


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SFA
new member


Reged: 03/18/05
Posts: 4
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 [Re: Doug_at_PARLEE]
#5444 - 03/19/05 01:34 AM (68.136.73.20)

People looking into Parlee frames, I would guess, understand that customization is the big selling point so the sizing charts probably don't drive customers away when dealing with the Z1. What percentage of the Z1's do you sell have the geometries from the web site size charts? If this number is "large" it's worth your while to have the existing charts. Otherwise, you might give some example geometries to illustrate some of the customizations you've done. A price list on the web site would be nice.

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skagwayroadie
contributor


Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: Doug_at_PARLEE]
#5461 - 03/20/05 07:15 PM (64.186.108.141)

I believe the majority of riders want a bike that performs in a certain way, but have no idea how the bike geometry relates to the dimensions of the human body...how the bike fits. Bike fit is an arcane thing to most riders and many riders think that because they may understand rake and trail numbers and such, they can design a bike to thier needs as well as a bike builder, when often times this is not the case. Many of the best customs shops seem to ask the usual questions AND also ask what is the geometry of their current bike, what the likes and dislikes of that bike are, so on and so forth. I think this is critical. Because if you do not understand the geometry numbers game, but you understand your body well and how your current ride affects your body or vice versa...IE how it feels...how can you expect the bike to be built with your needs and wants in mind?

I honestly think that the majority of riders out there can ride a stock bike without many issues, and many do. There are plenty that want a custom ride, but simply do not need them, myself included. More power to them, it is thier right...no big deal. But a few poeple really do require a custom fit to ride in comfort or achieve peak performance.

So, to answer your question...it depends on what kind of performance your stock line is to offer to a rider. A "crit" style geometry in and of it self is not a bad thing, as long as the perspective buyer understands what it is and what they want. Is a "stage race" geometry more appropriate...perhaps??? Is the rider going to be racing vs. recreationally riding vs commuting? Do they have flexibility issues or health issues to consider? Most enthusiasts know and understand these things, but not everybody does. If a buyer is truly interested, they will want to speak to a representative and discuss these things in detail. Personally, I say, include a size chart, and make a clear disclaimer what you can and can't do. Included the prices and fees for services or changes to a stock frame. Again, the serious buyer will follow thru and ask again anyway! I like Spectrums website on bike fit in this regard. Last time Iwas on it, Sevens site was pretty good too.

I also agree with Lon's remark...well said, as usual.

Hope this help...Mark

PS. Not everyone is like dbrk - he is certainly the exception, not the rule!

Edited by skagwayroadie (03/20/05 07:17 PM)


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Lon
sage
*****

Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
skagway new [Re: skagwayroadie]
#5464 - 03/20/05 08:54 PM (68.233.219.25)

Quote:


I also agree with Lon's remark...well said, as usual.




Thank you very much...I'll try not to get a "big head." I always feel the same about your posts. I just figure out how you can live that far north after Tucson. BRRRRRRRRRR


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1centaur
journeyman
*****

Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: Doug_at_PARLEE]
#5465 - 03/21/05 12:11 AM (24.34.152.94)

1) Agree with the price list request - not giving one conveys the impression of "if you have to ask..." I tend to go to the Hampsten site to see what your prices are, which is pretty odd if you think about it.

2) I think there is some feeling among some custom buyers that certain builders "get" what the buyer wants while others really just want to put the buyer on a slight tweak of what floats the builder's boat. In Parlee's case, in addition to no price list, you show only black bikes and show geometry charts with long top tubes, high bottom brackets and steep head tube angles, which suggests you built your bikes around the "crit" concept and don't have much interest in the other ways your bikes can be built. A custom CF buyer looking at that information may decide it's not worth the hassle of getting into a discussion with Parlee if it's going to become a debate on what's good in a bike - I have seen at least a couple of folks head off to Hampsten because they think Andy "gets it," which means Parlee's losing margin, possibly. Buyers at your price point are actually fairly unlikely to want crit geometry (rich, older, nearly Serotta demographics), so it seems odd you lean that way.

3) With some one-time tweaks to your website you can set the impression you wish to. To my mind that means a gallery that includes some paint jobs and some different geometries (labeled as to key measurements), and some verbiage that says you are there to give the discriminating custom buyer what he/she wants. You can leave the stock geometry charts up for the Z2 of course.

I have noted over the years that a lot of Calfee's buyers choose paint jobs that are shown on their site, suggesting a lack of imagination or perhaps a belief that the painter's more likely to get it right if it's been done before. Use your website to show that the field is wide open for a custom Parlee buyer.

BTW - I just started the process of getting a Z1x with geometry totally different from your stock numbers, paint, and decals different from what you offer. But I am now experienced getting custom bikes and have frequently wished your website had more detail and a greater sense of possibility, since I like to do plenty of research and thinking before engaging in conversation. You've done great just on word of mouth so far and I shudder to think what a better website would do to your wait times, but I am sure you have a chance to get that boost.

JB

--------------------
"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong


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skagwayroadie
contributor


Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
Re: skagway new [Re: Lon]
#5476 - 03/22/05 12:33 AM (64.186.108.106)

Thanks Lon, kind words for sure!
I often ask myself the same thing...why, why, why, then I look at these mountains and take a deep breath of fresh air and suddenly remember the Brrrrr feelings are only temporary! Then again, sun and sand sounds really good right now as I warm the car at 22 degrees before ehading to work at 4 in the fternoon....this is wrong! Its the first day of spring!!!!!


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RoyGB
friend


Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 28
Loc: Holliston, MA
Re: More Ride Impressions: Z1 new [Re: Doug_at_PARLEE]
#5537 - 03/24/05 10:54 PM (24.62.40.37)

Hi Doug,

Because you can customize the Z1, I believe it's important to have geometry tables published so that:

1) People have a baseline for what Parlee's interpretation of a crit, road, century, etc. geometry is. Having this documented will allow both you and your customer a set of numbers to refer to as you (or your retailers) and your customer discuss how much customization he or she needs.

2) These published numbers can help guide folks who may not necessarily be as experienced as Parlee in bike design from deviating too far from Parlee's recommended geometry in a particular discipline.

3) Parlee's identity is defined and strengthened. When someone chooses a standard "century" geometry for their Z1, that is how Parlee feels a century bike should handle and ride.

4) Having the different geometries on hand definitely broadens Parlee's appeal; the possibilities for the rider are more concrete because they are in black and white.

The reasons above aren't in any order of importance.

I also think that if Parlee is indeed open to customization (within the parameters you define), you must be clear in wanting to support folks who want customization. 1centaur is right when he says, “A custom CF buyer looking at that information may decide it's not worth the hassle of getting into a discussion with Parlee if it's going to become a debate on what's good in a bike…” The bottom line is that even if someone deviates a little from your recommended geometry, the other Parlee frame attributes such as strength from your lug design, optimal carbon lay-up, ride quality, superb craftsmanship, etc. still hold true, and that rider is still better off on a Parlee than a competitor’s.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
Roy Cervantes
Grace Bicycles
www.gracebicycles.com


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