Pintsized
journeyman
Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
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I was wondering what your experiences have been with carbon bars. Has anyone been using them on Calfees? How do they compare with aluminum on same?
I was told recently that these bars are not just about weight saving, but also put on so as to reduce vibrations and numbness. Is this still necessary with a carbon frame, which a Calfee is?
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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I have Zipp B2 carbon bars on my Dragonfly. On the Luna fixie I have an ITM Ergal (AL) bar. It is night and day on these two bikes. Both have Alpha Q carbon forks. The carbon bar isn't for lightness, it is true. The two bars weigh about the same. But the carbon significantly reduces the bad vibes, and it is shaped ergonomically for comfort and safety. Also they tend to be stronger than AL bars of the same weight. Totally stoked on these bars, wish I could put them on all my bikes. And I will - but probably later than sooner.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I don't have comprehensive information. I have only taken one quick approximately seven mile ride on my Calfee with an FSA Kwing carbon bar. As it had been raining a lot lately, yesterday was the first break in the weather and I jumped at the opportunity to go out after work to ride a short ride. The paved bicycle trail I ride on had sticks and debri strewn on it from the storm runoff. One thing I noted while riding my Calfee, compared to a Giant OCR2 that was my regular ride is that the trail was a lot smoother on my Calfee. I would feel a little bump if I rode over a finger-thick branch with my Giant. With my Calfee I wondered if the branch was really soft because I did not feel a bump at all.
Since I like to build up to riding long hours the wider platform that I have on my Kwing bar will be deeply appreciated. Comfort for my hands only really becomes important after about an hour and a half of riding, then I noticed the round bar on my Giant was becoming uncomfortable. The Kwing platform on top is flat and much wider than my Giant's bar. This will give me more comfort on the long due to greater contact area with my hands.
For me, the benefit of the carbon bar is because it can be ergonomically shaped as my Kwing is. I also have just a taste of the vibration-absorbing qualities of a full carbon bike. Because I will be tightly-bound to my machine in the summer I will post my riding impressions as I put the miles on. I was very happy with my Giant because I had adapted to it well enough. I see immediately that the posture improvements I have with my custom-fit Tetra Pro will benefit me tremendously on long rides. I will find out when I cross that bridge.
For what it's worth I have not made handlebar changes on bikes I've had. I have changed seats out frequently. The bars for me worked well enough. That said, from long rides on my Giant I knew my stretch was too long, the shape of the brake hoods was uncomfortable and the bar was not a comfortable enough platform to hold my weight up when I was tired after putting a lot of miles in. The Kwing bar along with having a flat top platoform sets the 2005 Integra brake hoods at a flat, comfortable angle and with a much better ergonomic shape. I'll report on my impressions after I've tested the bike out on long rides.
One more thing, the Kwing bar is also the correct width for my shoulders, something I never paid attention to before. Other bikes I have ridden over the years always had bars wider than my shoulders an I adapted to the bike. I now have a bike that is made for my body and my first impression is that it is about time. I like the feel of already being adapted since it already fits me.
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Pintsized
journeyman
Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
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Thanks again, all. This is a really helpful forum, and such friendly folks. Wonderful.
Roger also the details about the K-Wing in the anticipation thread.
The one horror story I heard about carbon bars was a guy who said another bike hit his in a race and made a big gash in the carbon bar and he had to get a new one. I don't know the details, this is all I got. He thought an aluminum bar would have survived intact but just been scratched. He did say he has had to lay the bike down a couple of times and the bars didn't get bothered by that. I am concerned because the Luna is going to be used for races. If I go carbon, will I realistically have to risk the cost of replacement here and there? I
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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Well it is a risk, but a small one I think. They're made pretty tough.
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Pintsized
journeyman
Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
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My husband tells me you aren't supposed to put clip-on time trial bars onto a carbon handlebar. Is that true? We both wonder. When you put a stem on the bar, you squeeze the bar, right? Why aren't clip ons treated the same?
I could use my Cannondale as the TT bike, but I'd rather use the Luna for everyone, at least for now.
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
Pintsized wrote:
My husband tells me you aren't supposed to put clip-on time trial bars onto a carbon handlebar. Is that true? We both wonder. When you put a stem on the bar, you squeeze the bar, right? Why aren't clip ons treated the same?
WAG, but I think the area where the stem is attached is reinforced (thicker, more material). The area where one would normally attach a clip-on is much thinner and thus weaker. That, compounded with the linear stress line around the outermost edge of the clip-on clamp could make for an interesting descent especially if the road was rough and you were on the brake hoods.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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My LBS guy told me that the FSA Kwing bar I have is able to accept at least certain clip-ons. With carbon bars it is all determined by whether they were designed with clip-ons in mind. Since we post on this web board then I suggest it is easy enough to find the manufacturer's web site and check it out to find out. I find, also that Google is great for finding specific answers since there are a lot of places on the 'net where clip-ons on carbon bars are discussed.
I have a habit of, when being asked a question I don't know the answer to, or seeing someone asking a question I'll try to find the answer using a number of different search engines.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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In the age of removable face plate headsets, this isn't such a big deal. Get a base bar and bar end shifters and bullhorn brake levers and maybe even a dedicated stem that fits right for tts. Takes only 1/2 hour or so to switch everything out once it is set up correctly. If you only do a few tts a year like most racers, it makes sense to do that.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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The one Kestrel will take the clip-on. The other one will not. Others say not to use them. It depends on the brand.
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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I have been an owner of the Kestrel EMS Pro Carbon bars for several years and I LOVE them. They are aero compatable and are as lite as anything out there. Though I am not a fan of Easton, they make a highly regarded bar, but it is not compatable with aero-bars. The zipps look like a nice option too, though I do not know anyone who rides em. On the old Calfee forum, this topic was very popular and worth a look.
In regards to your concerns to damage...I can attest that they are tough. 2 hard crashes on them without worries. I had an AL bar get scratched the same as those carbon bar you described several years back, I think they were ITM Prima 199's. I was told that they were not safe and not to ride them...replace them ASAP...I rode them for a few days, then decided to be safe. As a rule, I replace AL bars every 3 or so years. I put on about 5-7000 miles in a good year, so I am certainly getting my money's worth. With the CF bars, it is not such an issue. I understand that Al and CF are similar in that they do not have much fatique strength when there is a deep gouge like that. You are risking failure at an unknown momwnt with either bar.
One area that I think needs to be mentioned in the stem. As I think fly mentioned, the clamp can create a stress point and cuase the bar to fail if the clamp is too tight, and may be more prone to failure with certain 4 bolt clams. Easton had made a disclaimer to only use 2 bolt stem clamps with their bars for this reason...I think it was Easton anyway. I have used the 4 bolt stems with no issue, but I make darn sure not to overtighten and use a torque wench.
That being said, you are riding a CF frame and it is just as scary for the frame to fail as the bars, and that is simply not a worthy consideration anymore. The comfort, stiffness and lightweight that CF offer outweighs all the negative hopla that goes with bars, from even a few years ago. One thing I have noticed, most manufacturers are charging a premium price on CF bars...$250 or more...yet Kestrel still sells the EMS Pro's for 140 clams, the same amount I paid for mine when they came out in 2000. and they make them in the OS size now too. I would make a strong suggestion to go with them.
Ciao...Mark
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SAVAGEP
new member
Reged: 11/13/04
Posts: 7
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I use Kestrel SLs on my D'Fly, regular Kestrels on my 'cross bike (Seven).
Absolutey recommended.
In both cases I am using the Cinelli Solida stem. USE A TORQUE WRENCH, AND Ti PREP. And check the torque every couple of weeks - I have noticed a tendency for the steerer binder bolts and face plate bolts to come loose.
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PsyDoc
friend
Reged: 01/14/04
Posts: 37
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I remember reading that one should not re-check torque settings as it could do more harm than good. As I recall, a tightener has a maximum clamping power at a specified torque setting. Once a tightener is torqued, there will be some "loosening" of the bolt head, not threads, even though the torque level is correct. When you retorque, you are in essence exceeding the recommended torque value. So, if you want to check the torque settings, then loosen all bolts first, then bring them back up to the specific torque level.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Although technically correct, the increase in torque if you just check is miniscule and nowhere near the crushing limit of a properly-designed carbon handlebar. At the torque levels used to tighten a stem to a carbon fork it is a non-issue. In high-torque and critical applications like in the space shuttle main engine for example, then those specs must be very tight because of the need to be man-rated. And there are some very high pressures and high vibrations that experienced on that engine.
I have 4 miles short of 100 on my new Calfee Tetra Pro. I have the FSA Kwing bar on mine. What I've noticed is that that bar is stiff. I have some funny feelings when I realize I am relying on a carbon bar and imagine what would happen if the bar would suddenly break. That said, in reality one should be more worried about an aluminum bar than a carbon one. I'm impressed with the stiffness of my bike. I like it. The ride can be easily softened by dropping the air pressure in my tires. That said, at rated pressure the ride is softer than I experienced on my 2004 Giant OCR2.
I am very happy with the wide flat top and ergonmic shape of my bar. In a very short time I've ridden farther and faster on my Calfee than my Giant. I experience less fatigue. Everything being taken into account, the fit, the response and the ergonomics of my Calfee are very pleasing to me.
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
SAVAGEP wrote:
USE A TORQUE WRENCH, AND Ti PREP. And check the torque every couple of weeks - I have noticed a tendency for the steerer binder bolts and face plate bolts to come loose.
A properly torqued bolt should not come loose in a few weeks, unless of course those few weeks were spent on a shake table. :-) You might want to look for another cause such as your torque wrench is way out of spec for example, or perhaps your wrench is reading a different torque unit (nm vs. pounds/inch). The fail safe would be to safety wire it! ...of course, you still have to safety wire properly!
BTW, "lock washers" DO NOT work!!! ...when a bolt/nut is properly torqued. The amount of force required to loosen the bolt is much greater than the force produced by the lock washer.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I concurr on the fastener integerity of a properly-torqued bolt. More often it's over-tightening which distorts the threads that cause a bolt to loosen with vibration.
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PsyDoc
friend
Reged: 01/14/04
Posts: 37
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Whether the reports of carbon bars failing is due to poor design, poor materials, poor installation, we do not know the "true" reason the bars broke. I am not against carbon, but I am not convinced about its durability. There are plenty of stories of people, even pros, breaking carbon bars. If I recall correctly, most of the pros that broke bars during the tour last year were not "big guys." My understanding, and of course it could be misguided, is that carbon bars can/are more likely to fail catastrophically whereas aluminum bars typically do not.
Two stories I can recall that involve carbon bar breakage.
Sandy (Serotta forum) recalled the following:
I have ridden with someone with a custom carbon Calfee Tetra Pro and mostly all carbon parts, where possible, including EMS handlebar. At an intersection after a stop, he slowly turned right and tried to click into his pedals. He was in a large gear and lost his balance and the bike fell down hitting his handlebar. He is a light rider, around 150 pounds at best.
He simply snapped the handlebar. I looked at the bar and it looked really strange to me, as if someone or something had simply grabbed the bar, twisted it, and presto, it had a large break in it. I only use aluminum handlebars and after witnessing the accident, at very low speed, even on inpact, and after looking at the handlebar, I resolved to never use an aluminum bar or stem, under any condition. Obviously, it was only one occurrence, but it was enough for me.
Rich W. (Serotta forum) had first hand experiences with carbon bars breaking:
No carbon bars for me... I learned the hard way... had a pair of Easton EC90s fail on me decending fast on a road that had expansion joints. The bars crushed inside the stem, and rotated 90° downward in a split second. I was lucky my hands we on the drops... if I was on the hoods, my name would have been "Guido-the human pizza'.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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Anybody remember the kilo rider who broke his handlebars at worlds about ten or fifteen years ago. One side of his (aluminum)bars broke, leaving him to ride the rest of his kilo with just one side of the bars. I think he was on a winning pace and then he had to settle for third.
My Zipp B2s feel very very very strong and I was careful to tighten them correctly. In addition, they're OS.
Anything can break. If you have doubts about carbon bars, nobody is making you ride them.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Sav...I had the same "tendency" on a face plate of a stem with ti bolts. Then one day at 25 mph coming up to a stop light on a downhill they both loosened at once and popped out.
The advice to loosen and retorque is right on. All properly trained mechanics do it that way. All torque wrenches if used a significant amount need to be recalibrated once a year.
I'd go to the hardware store and get some nice steel bolts in the same size. You may add 12 grams to the bike but you'll save about a pound of skin from your face. 
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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I keep reading about torque wrenches on the site. What kind of torque wrench are you all using and where the heck did you get it.
I've got a torque wrench suitable for the spark plugs in my car and other auto related work. Just fine for changing cassettes, but pretty mondo for doing any fine work and I've never seen any kind of torque wrench among the tool displays at the various lbs.
Is there such a thing as a "delicate" torque wrench?
Thanks
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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You can get any size of torque wrench. At work I use one calibrated in inch/pounds and it's really a torque screwdriver since you don't need a handle to torque 4 inch/lbs, a regular screwdriver handle is good enough.
Any good shop should have torque wrenches and a tensiometer for spokes as well.
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bfd
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 77
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What you want is a inch-pound torque wrench. Your nearest Sears would be an excellent place to start. For example, for about $60 or less when its on sale you can get something like this:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00944560000
Not good enough? Well then you can spend a bit more for one like this:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00944593000&tab=spe#tablink
Still not good enough? Then get a Snap-on:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=55248&group_ID=953&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
Limace wrote:
Is there such a thing as a "delicate" torque wrench?
Thanks
As others have answered, yes. We have some at work that measure in the ounce/inch range.
BTW, the correct English description is mass/length. ie. pound/foot, not foot/pound. Subtle, but important difference.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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My shop uses the Snap On and it is awesome. It is digital.
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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A final question. When specs say xyz pound/feet of torque for something like a Crank bearing (thinking specifically of the FSA MegaExo outer bearings) and a particular tool is indicated as appropriate (the Park BBT-9) which does not appear to be set up to work with a torque wrench, how do you measure the torque setting so you have confidence it is right?
Thanks
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
Limace wrote:
When specs say xyz pound/feet of torque for something and a particular tool is indicated as appropriate which does not appear to be set up to work with a torque wrench, how do you measure the torque setting so you have confidence it is right?
Call the manufacturer that made the spec??
In theory, and in application to a reasonable extent, you could take the tool and add a pipe extension (like a cheater bar). Measure from the center of the drive side to a point 12" away onto the cheater pipe and mark it with a Sharpie pen or similar. Let's say your spec is 10 lb/ft of torque. Now tighten the bolt/nut/bearing/whatever exerting 10 pounds of pressure on the spot that you marked. That is how one exerts 10 pound/feet of torque, for example. See why I said it was a subtle but important difference in the manner you decribe the torque spec? If you said 10 foot/pounds, you'd need a 10 foot long wrench and exerted 1 pound of force. You get the same amount of torque, but the wrench is completely different!
So, how do you measure 10 pound of force onto the marked spot? You could take a fishing scale and attach it to the marked spot (drill a hole or whatever in the pipe). Now pull on the fishing scale until 10 pounds is reached! If you could somehow attach a bathroom scale to (only) the 12" mark, then apply force until you reached 10 pounds on the scale, you'd accomplish the same thing.
So like I said, this is how you'd do it in theory. It would work and be reasonably accurate as long as your set up were correct. But as you can see from the description, it would be awkward at best.
Perhaps the best way would be to "calibrate" your hand. Obtain a torque wrench. Practice tightening bolts to 10 pounds using the same distance (length) as the Park tool you have (8" for example). Now, when you tighten the bearing using the Park wrench, you'll be familiar with how much force is needed to be equivelent to 10 pounds. Obviously, this method is not very accurate and is very user skill dependant.
Good luck!
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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Thanks, Skuke.
I thought about how to do this over the weekend and came to the conclusion that the really practical approach was to take a WAG and try not to strip anything. Given my historical experience with judging these things, its off to the LBS we go.
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Craig_Calfee
new member
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 11
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When Carbon handlebars first came out a few years ago, I was glad to see another good use of the material. A few companies sent me some bars to try out and I liked the better vibration damping that I anticipated would be the main feature. I then proceeded to test them in my usual "real world abuse" method, which consists of treating them to the harshest acceptable level of "normal" use. For example, I would tighten the bolts on my stem clamp to the recommended torque and then go ride off a 6" curb rather inelegantly with my hands on the hoods. This would test the gripping power of the clamp on the carbon. An aluminum handlebar won't slip under this test. The carbon one did. I was able to rotate it back up without loosening the bolts (as most bike racers would do in the middle of a race) Later I tightened the bolts a little more and repeated the test. It didn't slip. After riding them for a few weeks, again in my usual test mode style (aiming for small potholes and not standing when crossing railroad tracks, etc.), I found that the bars had cracked right next to the stem clamp.
Later, I tried the same informal test with a 31.8 handlebar and stem and found it took a lot longer to get the handlebar to crack. By then I had developed the BarStem, which eliminates the clamping stresses.
In searching for good carbon handlebars to mate with our BarStem, I asked a lot of companies whether they tested every single bar or if they just did sample testing. I was surprised to find that only two companies (Kestrel's Chinese source and our BarStem source)tested every production bar. I went to Taiwan (where most of the good carbon handlebars are made) and toured the factory where my favorite design was being made. I was interested to know what specific things the production management did to insure that no bad handlebars left the factory. By bad handlebars, I mean those where the worker lays the material into the mold sloppily, with wrinkles or forgetting a layer in a key spot. They use a highly drapeable fabric instead of the common unidirectional pre-preg (which is prone to wrinkling). They weigh every handlebar to make sure there is the specified amount of material. They also do a deflection test on every bar to see if the material has been put in the correct place. I was satisfied and ordered a hundred bars.
Long story short: If you clamp a stem on a carbon handlebar, it should be a 31.8 clamp diameter and tightened to the specified torque. Most of the 31.8's will handle some over tightening.
Not all bars are tested and I would keep an eye on them for small cracks developing in the first few hundred miles. I think more companies are testing all the bars, but I haven't checked recently.
Craig Calfee
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Thanks for taking the time to reply Craig...glad to read your input on the issue. MAkes me feel more confident about my CF bars.
...Mark
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Thanks Craig. I also like to see an expert that I know you are to post on a board like this. Facts are made clear for us all to good measure.
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