Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 373
Loc: Never where I want to be
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And I don't know why.
After about an hour they hurt when I'm in the drops. I really can't stay in them very long. I haven't changed anything on my bike, except I've switched out seats a whole bunch of times, mixing and matching on all my bikes for various reasons. Is there anything else I might've done/changed that would start this? I'm confident I kept the seat post at the same height, but maybe not?
I'm 2000K+ miles new to road biking over the last 9 or 10 months. Maybe my body position has changed or relaxed maybe, and it's time to tweak the overall setup? Just a guess here. When I'm not riding my road bike I'm riding my mountain bikes, ride 3-4 days a week, so I'm active, don't think it's a conditioning thing, or is it? Bars are aluminum Prima, Ouzo pro fork. I really haven't changed anything besides the seats. Any ideas?
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Nev: While changing your seats, have you checked the actual seat height, as opposed to just bolting on the saddle and keeping the seat post the same? Often there is quite a difference in the dimension from the seat rail to the top of the seat.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 373
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
Dave_Thompson wrote:
Nev: While changing your seats, have you checked the actual seat height, as opposed to just bolting on the saddle and keeping the seat post the same? Often there is quite a difference in the dimension from the seat rail to the top of the seat.
No. I haven't. Outstanding point and it seems so obvious. But I thought I been sensitive to leg extension. And I have messed with moving the seats forward/back to get comfortable and where I remember visualizing the front hub when in the drops (hidden by the bars).
OK, so then new problem would be I'm not savvy enough on "road fit" to know where to start. Any tips that keep me from going back to the shop would be great. The only, and best, shop I'd trust for this level of bike precision is on the other side of town.
Thanks Dave
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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Another possibility is in the wrist itself.
Had any injuries there, ever? One of my sons hurt his wrist snowboarding seven or eight years ago and although technically healed it still hurts him when he does certain things, like riding for a long time.
Another option is that you are putting a lot of weight on your wrists while they are in the drops. Have you ever seen pictures of pro riders with tape around their wrists? Common in a lot of other sports where there is stress regularly being applied directly back on the wrist. Not a lot of ways to diversify how the pressure is applied when you are in the drops.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
Nev wrote:
..... where I remember visualizing the front hub when in the drops (hidden by the bars).
I'm not too sure that the 'hub hidden by the bars' point is a necessarily valid way of judging things. Sort of like KOPS, I treat it as a starting point and go from there. I think first you need to get the seat position nailed. Then, when that's a done deal, the bars, bar height and stem length are easier to detail. For instance, when I'm on the hoods, the bars are a fair bit 'in front' of the hub and that is my preferred riding position. I'm comfortable there.
It sounds like you've made too many adjustments that aren't related to each other. Maybe start back from square one, with your seat position.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 373
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
Dave_Thompson wrote:Quote:
I'm not too sure that the 'hub hidden by the bars' point is a necessarily valid way of judging things.
It sounds like you've made too many adjustments that aren't related to each other. Maybe start back from square one, with your seat position.
That front hub thing is the only thing I remember from the first fitting which is why I brought it up.
I think you're right Dave, time to start over. Especially since they start to hurt so quickly in the drops, and stop when I'm on top. And I know how dramatic a 1/16" or 1/8" or whatever change can be. Time to go back, and pay attention and take notes and measurements to bring back home with me. Anything else I should ask/learn?
Limace,
No previous wrist injuries. And good idea thought on too much weight forward, but I'm pretty conscious of not leaning forward or holding myself up with my arms, I can tell a difference pretty quickly with the handling when I'm leaning on the bars too much. But still, I'll be out in the morning again. I'll watch for it.
Thanks for your answers, Gentlemen,
Nev
Edited by Nev (04/13/05 01:16 AM)
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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A secondary thought: Early last year I started doing exercises to strengthen my core; abs, obliques and lower back. That helped me tremendously. Having a stronger core allowed those muscles to help hold up my body and not place so much weight on my arms and wrists. Being an 'older' guy, I'm not terrible fast but I like to ride the longer distances and have to comfortable over the 75~125 mile rides.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I can relate to aches in the joints on long rides.
I'm still working on fine dialing-in of my position on my Calfee. From my experience it takes a lot of rides to get an understanding of what is going on with my body, fit and aches. I work with my LBS guy who did the fitting measurements and has worked with me since I got my first fitting over a year ago.
Basically any strain on a joint can cause injury. Two things to keep in mind: minimize the strain and treat the injury. That said it's not all that easy to determine why a joint starts hurting.
On a road bike as I get older it makes sense to raise my bar position to reduce the strain on joints that have been damaged by absue over decades of working and playing and stupid mistakes.
I would suggest in your wrist pain in the drops is to experiment with rotating your bar to change the angle of your hand in the drops. It's not being in the drops per-se, but the angle your wrist is in while there and what forces are being applied. For me I have trouble with my knee joints. I'm lucky that my wrists aren't bothering me. Using a wrist brace might be helpful for you as well.
I realize, in my experience that some aches I get only become noticeable after long rides. In my normal walking around and working I don't put my joints in those positions that hurt. When I actually do stretches and rotations of my joints it becomes clear that I have pain at the ends of rotation. I have problems that are basically hidden during normal activities and only are exhibited when I ride for a long period.
Do anything that reduces the strain on your wrist joint and do anything you can to treat the injury.
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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I can identify with the effects of age. Some things I have been told over time, some from before taking up riding and some after.
The pains you need to worry the most about are the ones that show up while you are exercising and don't go away. Ones that show up only after you have stopped usually only need a regular rest period, ice (always good after any exercse) and attention (stretching and ibuprofen is good but it takes about 9 a day to have any real effect on inflamation, ask your doctor before gulping a bottle.)
I've actually got some pain in both knees that doesn't show up while I'm riding. Just a part of old injuries, but I pay attention to my fit to be sure the riding stays pain free. The other part is just live with it.
When you start any exercise program be alert to all the small changes it will trigger. I also went back to working on a core strength program this Winter and found that every time I got on my bike it felt like the seat needed to be tweaked forwards or backwards, particularly if I was also doing any leg work in the exercise sessions. This pretty well evened out after six or seven weeks of a regular exercise schedule.
Falling over is not good.
Expect your fit to change as you do core/leg exercises and lock them in by riding. Increased flexibility and strength can change what positions will feel best for you.
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Montaque
new member
Reged: 09/14/04
Posts: 24
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Perhaps there is a professional bicycle fitting service in your area like this one in ElDorado Hills, California:
http://www.bodyconceptsinc.com/cycling3.html
Video Cycle Fitting:
Proper positioning of the bike to your own body type and riding technique is crucial to reducing the chance of injury, providing comfort, and enhancing your performance. Video analysis allows precise measurement of your cycling posture, range of motion, and technique. Every cyclist has a unique body - With our video cycle service we customize your fitting (body to bike) in order to optimize performance and comfort. The fitting takes approximately one hour. Two, one half hour follow-up sessions to fine tune your position, are included in the initial fitting charge.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Instead of guessing on your own find the best fitter anywhere in driving distance of ...say a day... We finally got somebody in Pittsburgh who is great and I was amazed. After about a month to get used to proper position on a bike all sorts of hurts went away. I think it is a matter of a doctor being his own patient...it is too hard to figure out on your own.
The key is to hunt very carefully for the right person. Marty Nothstein came out here to work with my guy and the UPMC testing center...about a day's drive.
A lot of people profess they are "fitters" which too often means they took the Serotta course or another similar one. The depth of knowledge needed is way beyond that.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I thouroughly agree with you, Lon. I had no idea about fit until I had read some things somewhere. When I had already gotten my Giant around two years ago I found a local bike shop that charges for a professional fitting. I decided to go for it. I made a very good decision there. My LBS guy obviously knows what he is doing. Over the past two years he has talked with me numerous times and re-checked my posture on the bike. He has recommended stretching excercises for me. The improvement in fit with proper seat-height adjustment and setback plus a short stem made my bike much more comfortable to ride.
My LBS guy re-measured me a couple of times before calling my order in for my custom Tetra Pro. The fit is so good that I can sit on my seat with my eyes closed and fall forward and naturally my hands fall right onto the bars where I would put them if looking. I can pivot to the drops without stretching forward. The difference is amazing. Although I can't quantify because too many variables have changed, I can state that I ride approximately 33% further and approximately 2 to 2 1/2 miles per hour faster than I did with my Giant.
Right now I'm keeping track of my pains in my knees. One thing I do know is I used to have a pain in my neck. I just swung my head from side-to-side and realize I no longer have that pain. I will let my LBS guy know about my knee pains for he is waiting for feedback and has a shim ready for my shorter leg. I know sorting out pains is my job, knowing what to do to fix them is an expert's job and I feel with a great deal of confidence that my LBS guy is an expert and knows what he is doing.
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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Another vote of support for Lon's advice.
On a point brought up in Insightdriver's comment, I have just recently added the LeWedge to my riding shoes. My problem is bow legs and flat feet. The shim effect of the product is doing amazing things. They also advertise that they can be stacked for leg length differences.
Using them has, however, also got me tweaking my fit again. I'm not sure whether the added height on the instep of my shoe is responsible, the fact that it allows a straighter power line through my ankle to the pedal that i've been riding more and may be more flexible, or what, but I'm finding that moving my saddle a little bit higher is more comfortable on my knees. I still haven't quite figured out where to go with forward/backwards movement of the saddle.
There is a blurb at the very back of this month's Bicycling with the "common wisdom" on saddle movement based on where you are feeling pain in your knees. Maybe reading that will help you focus your thoughts about what you want to discuss with your fitter.
For me, perhaps it is time to get fitted again.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Don't forget you can get "bikers" knee as well as runners knee. A cause for it can be pushing big gears. It will be increased by any leg or foot abnormalites.
Is it possible that you love your Tetra so much, feel so comfortable, so strong, so super you are keeping more in big rings and small cogs? This would stress your knees much more. Add in the leg and it might add up. Give it a thought. I know I can be guilty of it on the rare day I feel ambitious. 
Also when you go back ask if you can ride the trainer hard and have him push you hard until you start riding like usual and not like you are on the trainer in a store thinking of those perfect circles. That is what the person I work with does. He coaches you at the same time he is riding you to death. Eventually you are riding like you really do if you know what I mean.
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Limace
journeyman
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Oregon
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Lon, this is a good reminder to me also. I've been doing a lot of "Coach Troy" tapes recently and he goes heavy on big wheel/ small cog at high cadence sets. I wasn't thinking about the biker's knees potential. Caution will now be exercised (no pun intended.)
Thanks
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 373
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Uh Oh...you guys are good.
IN FACT, my right knee has been bugging me. And I know it's not from pushing big gears because I stopped doing that pretty early, and from studying the racing on TV closer and from riding my Fixed gear on longer rides -- don't need them for overall time.
I think I'll find the best and pay whatever to have a thorough and complete refitting. I also have shoes and pedals I didn't have when I when I got the thing first time.
I'm in Dallas/Ft. Worth. If anyone out there happens to know someone out here for a fitting that'd be great. Richardson Bike Mart is the huge store in Dallas with every top bike you can imagine. I'll go there unless someone knows different. Maybe someone in Austin?
Thank you all once again
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Don't rush to Richardson. Too often a big place can have a transient staff or their focus is more sales. I know one person who does fits from his house. He was a pro wrench, got tired of the travel & got a "real job so now he does it on the side.
Keep asking around and also remember the day's drive rule. It would be worth it. There are some shops in Colorado that have super reputations. A lot of pros live in Boulder. It is worth a trip to have it done right. I'm very close to the industry in some ways and I know how incompetent some so-called fitters are. The most expensive one in Pittsburgh is a joke. (I asked him once if he had a 26.8 post in stock and he said he had a whole bunch. It was then I realized he knew so little about bikes that he had no idea what I was talking about. A friend wrenched there and he got a kick out of it...they had not a one.)
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