Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 375
Loc: Never where I want to be
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I'll try to keep it concise:
He slammed me forward, way forward. Raised the seat, got rid of the easton setback post, put on a straight post, moved the seat almost all the way forward, added a slightly longer stem,
My first "long" 40 miles before work:
--I felt way higher immediately. Like I was riding on Monster tires.
--I liked the feeling once I got used to it. I felt faster (picked up almost 1 mph on a shorter 20 miles the day before, and it was windy.)Feels stronger in the legs.
--Fit guy was pretty keen on getting my knees over the pedal spindel. I was way back before he changed it up.
--I'm definitely heavy on my hands and arms now, leaning on them hard, almost holding myself up. I had to constantly adjust myself to keep hands/fingers comfortable.
I like the bottom half of my body now, but now I don't think the top half is right.
Any thoughts on this?
The Myth of "KOPS" (Knees over pedals)
An Alternative Method of Bike Fit
by Keith Bontrager
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html
Can I pull back the seat a tad to get me off my arms? I feel a little scrunched, but again, I do like how my legs feel.
I got a fitter I don't particularly like. But I was there a minute or two after the doors opened and it was already packed and the recommended guy was there yet, so I went for it. I'll stay with it but wondering what all your thoughts might be.
Thanks as always,
Nev
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I'm an older guy and got fit, taking into account my core strength and flexibility. On that front I'm in a more-upright position on my bike for proper balance with my body. As I understand it, for racing you will be bent more downward, but you had better have the proper flexibility. If you are a fitness and recreational rider and you feel too much pressure on your hands than you need a higher stance on your bike.
Your saddle height and setback are fixed based on your leg length. That does not change. Top tube length, headseat extension and stem length plus type of handlebar all contribute to uppper-body position. That is the next fitting step. If you feel you were pushed down lower than you are comfortable, then you should bring this up with your LBS. Give yourself time, though. As you gain leg strength you generate more lift and reduce the load on your arms. If you are stretched forward, though, not just bent down, then you may always be uncomfortable. It all depends on your body flexibility as I understand it.
As I am properly fit I can ride in the drops for an extended period of time without discomfort. I can ride my tops for a very long time without any neck pain or upper-body discomfort. That is the nature of proper fit. It's a myth, as far as I understand it, that you must be bent down low to be more efficient on the bike. My upper body to thigh angle is approximately 90 deg and that is fine as far as I am concerned.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Nev: KOPS is a starting point, nothing more. Some folks are better in that position, some better several CM behind the spindle.
Keep your current positioning for a few more rides. Then move your seat aft say 5~10mm and ride like that a couple times. Soon you will feel what feels best, is faster and is more comfortable for you. BUT measure everything the way it is now, so you will have a reference point, and make your changes from the reference point. Write everything down, don't trust it to memory. It sounds like a few minor tweaks, plus some getting used to, and your fit will be pretty dialed in.
--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Well normally I'd say stay with it. When you are refit often there is a transition time.
I think you goofed and got somebody who was dangerous with a little bit of knowledge. You should have waited for the recommended person or returned. Trying to save time on a fitting is not spending time well. I truly top fitter does it by appointment and getting one is like a top doctor. They tend to get booked up especially in season. They get a reputation and the business rolls in.
There is no way you arms and hands should feel that way if you are fit correctly. I know the feeling very well. I had it before the top notch guy moved here. When he refit me my arms and hands were all of a sudden not "shaken not stirred" on a good ride.
You should be over the spindle like that but there is a heck of a lot more to fitting than that. His fitting reminds me of the guy in Pittsburgh that charges 4 times more than my guy...went to two fitting clinics...one Serotta... and still is clueless. You have to understand the entire concept of cycling to truly fit someone well.
What would I do? I'd get the store owner or manager and explain your problem. Negotiate for a refit with the recommended person, make an appointment and go to him. I'd suspect it changes if he is any good.
A really top notch fitting usually takes about 2 hours. They have to learn about you, your skills, flexibility etc. etc.
Good luck. Why get a fitting if you then have to go back to guessing on your own?
Don't forget I said the one day rule in another reply. Driving a day to get the right fit is time well spent and money well spent. Rushing through a fit with someone is just the opposite.
I hope you don't get insulted Nev and take this in the spirit it is given. You wanted a Serotta and were sold a Huffy at a Serotta price.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Nev I forgot what forum I was on! You went to buy a Calfee and were sold the Huffy.
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 375
Loc: Never where I want to be
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 Quote:
Lon wrote:
Nev I forgot what forum I was on! You went to buy a Calfee and were sold the Huffy.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Great use of Smilies. 
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Lon you are saying well the very things I wanted to say but didn't find the right words. Finding the right fitter is important. I don't think I could ever have dialed myself in properly without having first learned from my fitter exactly what tweaks would be reasonable. I won't make any change more than a few millimeters at any one time now since I have learned that such a small change makes a huge difference after I've been riding a few hours. A ten mile test ride is not enough to determine fit differences.
I think I understand a bit about what lacks in your fit right now since you mention in threads wrist pain and in your current fit a feeling of being stretched. That stretched feeling after a time will be an ache in your neck and a pain in your wrists possibly.
I think it better you get a short stem with up angle on it to bring your arms in closer so you feel more balanced. After gaining core strenth you could then go to a longer stem. It doesn't work the other way around too well.
I've been in plenty of bike shops where they never ever mention changing stems or handlebars. Some barely make an effort to raise or lower your bars. That's irresponsible. Bike fit has to take into account your body shape, riding style, core strength and flexibility.
Since I've had a proffesional fit at my LBS before I ordered my Calfee he had me come in so he could check some details on my fit. Since he is proffesional about it he has my file and he had a different brand of bike set up (happened to be a Guru) with my dimensions dialed in so he could make certain the angles and lengths of the top tube, head tube extension and angle were going to be the right ones for me. If a guy does not have a clipboard or any angle gauge or other tools when he says he is going to fit you, tell him, "no thanks, not today."
I second what Lon says, a proper fitting is like going to a doctor and it IS money well-spent.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I totally agree with you! My shop is identical with the file on each fitting and the angle gauge.
Good luck Nev.
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skagwayroadie
contributor
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Alaska
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Hey Nev...be sure to make adjustments is small increments and give your body some time to adapt...too much, or too many changes at once can be difficult to quantify, making the work all for not. Take notes too.
One thought on the upperbody discomfort issue...a lot of poeple put way too much emphasis on lower body strength and forget dedicated time to core muscle fitness. Not saying you are in that boat, but I see countless poeple in my Spin classes that complain of tired hands, shoulders, tri's... due to holding themselves up because they do not have adequate strength in the core muscles. The lower back, and ab's should be holding you upright, the arms are there for stability, support, balance and steering. Riding lower is fine and proven to be faster, but the price is lower back discomfort if the fitness is up to snuff. You can still have isues with a more upright posture, but it should be to a much less degree.
Hope his helps and keep us informed...Mark
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easypedaler
contributor
Reged: 02/08/04
Posts: 149
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I just had my "second" bike to be set up as close as possible to my fitted calfee. I still feel a tad different but better than before. I was behind the crank and now I am on top of. Other sligh adjustments sure made a difference. Good Luck 
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