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High-end Custom Bicycles >> Calfee Design Fan Club

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Pintsized
journeyman


Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
Racing with Calfees, again
#6107 - 06/07/05 06:07 AM (24.21.147.115)

Hey, there's another one ! I saw a fella on a lovely red Calfee in the men's crit tonight in Eugene (OR). I didn't get close enough to see the details. He won, too Meant to to tell him about this list, but he'd gone by time I remembered it.

Red Calfee, you're not already on this list, are you?


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flythebike
captain


Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: Pintsized]
#6500 - 08/22/05 12:44 PM (66.7.29.138)

I won my race yesterday. I took off on a sort of downhill ramp prior to the last corner. These bikes are so responsive and steady through corners, its really great. All that momentum carried me up the rise to the line and I came around the one guy in front of me. Woo-hooo! I can upgrade to Cat three now.

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Pintsized
journeyman


Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: flythebike]
#6509 - 08/26/05 01:11 AM (24.22.126.42)

Hey, good job !! Upgrading is a major deal. I'm impressed.

It's nice to see people who are eager to upgrade. There is so much grumbling you hear about people who ought to upgrade but don't....not sure how much basis here is to this, but the subject hits the local bike org list every year.

I stayed with a couple of women 3's for 15 laps (of 25) a couple weeks ago--you know the 4/5 crits where they mix the women in with the men. All 3 of us ladies came off. They got back on the men but I couldn't make the jump! Ah well, maybe some day....That's why I'm still a 4.


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flythebike
captain


Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: Pintsized]
#6512 - 08/26/05 04:35 PM (66.7.29.138)

When you break through the wall, you tend to really break through it, I think. If I don't upgrade, I'll stagnate. The Cat 4 races just aren't that hard for me anymore. For me the breakthrough resulted from a lot of fixed gear riding, and several years of consistent training, and racing every weekend this year.

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flythebike
captain


Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: flythebike]
#6626 - 09/20/05 06:21 PM (66.7.29.138)

I won my first race as a cat 3. The 3/4 race at "Turkey Day." So named, because the top three in each cat. get a turkey. I also won a set of Kreitler rollers, valued at $380! What an awesome prize. Here is a photo: http://www.ncvc.net/modules.php?set_albumName=album40&id=dan&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
My teammate set me up, chasing down everything that went from 2 or 3 miles out, and then led me into the last corner, delivering me to the 300m point and letting me go from there...


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Insightdriver
captain
***

Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: flythebike]
#6629 - 09/21/05 12:41 AM (67.182.161.77)

Congratulations!!!!

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Pintsized
journeyman


Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: flythebike]
#6642 - 09/22/05 07:15 AM (24.22.126.42)

The picture that comes up when I click the link you give shows a guy with a disk wheel out in front, but you don't appear to be describing a time trial. What did I miss?

And, yeah, congratulations. And how.


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flythebike
captain


Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: Insightdriver]
#6659 - 09/28/05 12:46 PM (66.7.29.142)

Disc wheels are legal for mass start events. Usually it isn't a good idea to run them. Even super-light ones, such as the Zipp are a bit heavy, at about 5 ounces more than my Zipp 404 rear. But at 960 grams, it weighs about as much as the wheels that many people race on. Also, the are so expensive it is a risk to run them in the event of a crash.It weighs about as much as a Mavic Cosmic Carbone (2005 and previous), for instance. But it is harder to handle, because it has a gyroscopic effect. You can't just encourage the bike to turn, you have to firmly order it to do so.

You can't see it from the picture, but the run-in to this finish goes down a significant hill. Then it flattens, and the last 150 meters even kick up slightly. So, there, the inertia of the disc is actually an advantage, not to mention the aeodynamics. Since we're talking about a 40mph+ sprint, that makes a big difference, too.

The race course only had three turns in about 1.2 miles, with none of them real tricky. So I decided that the disc would be a significant competitive advantage in the sprint, and not a significant competitive disadvantage in the rest of the race. The field was small, so I wasn't overly concerned about wrecks. In this case, I made the right decision to use it, and as you can see by the gap, I won the race handily.

I used the same wheel on the track last weekend, so it was also good practice for that. Cheers.

Edited by flythebike (09/28/05 12:46 PM)


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homsie
new member


Reged: 12/31/03
Posts: 23
Loc: San Ramon, CA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: flythebike]
#6662 - 09/29/05 08:50 PM (162.115.172.121)

Nice job, but I'm thinking that it usually comes down to rider strength, tactics, positioning and a bit of luck in crits.....versus your choice of a 404 or a disk. Personally, I wouldn't ever give up control for a little aero in a crit..

James


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flythebike
captain


Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: homsie]
#6665 - 09/30/05 03:32 PM (66.7.29.142)

This was not a crit. The turns don't even slow you down. If you saw the picture, all the guys behind me were on Ksyriums. If you study aerodynamics, you'll see that when you're going 40mph plus, the output required to overcome wind resistance is huge. If there had been lots of attacks in that race, lots of push and pull, I would have been at a disadvantage. But late in the year, after lots of people had done the 30+ race, I knew it would probably be a parade and then a sprint.

Also, there was no luck involved here either. My teammate was perfect, shutting everything down, and then handing it to me with about 300-350 meters to go. That is a bit far out, but with the disc it wan't a problem. You put me on 36 spoke wheels though and somebody might have taken me. Yet, I think I still win that on a 404 rear, maybe just not by as much. But also, having the disc left me the freedom to jump from far away, and know I could hold it. I'm not a big believer in luck, at least, sometimes, you have to make your own luck.

And, that 404 is the best crit wheel I've ever had.


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homsie
new member


Reged: 12/31/03
Posts: 23
Loc: San Ramon, CA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: flythebike]
#6667 - 09/30/05 04:39 PM (162.115.172.122)

Well, I guess that you could call it a circuit race...1.2 miles with three corners hardly qualifies as a road race. It's much more like a crit than a road race. In any case, if you think it gives you the edge, go for it. It all my years of road racing and crit racing, you always need a little luck....which means that you don't get caught up in a crash. In crits especially, it's not if you'll get in a crash, it's more like when you get in a crash.

James


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flythebike
captain


Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: homsie]
#6668 - 09/30/05 05:04 PM (66.7.29.142)

I think not crashing is a skill, not luck. You have to know who to be near, when to be where, and so forth. You have to watch whats going on, and sense the mood of the riders. It also helps not to racing with Cat 4s, much less 5s. If you want to insist it is luck, well, that is just your perception. INHO, you choose who to follow. If you choose badly, you can fall down. In this race there were only 30-35 people so that was definitely true. If you are racing with 100 people or more, it can be harder to self-select your position. But, ask Lance Armstrong if his Tour de France record of not-crashing was luck or the result of a deliberate practice of riding near the front behind people he could trust. I avoided many serious mishaps this year simply from riding at the front.

The turns there are so wide that nobody touches their brakes, even people who normally would. The question is what is going to be the decisive factor in the race? In a race with three easy turns and no climbs, wheel choice is not determined by agility. The decisive factor in this race was simply maximum terminal velocity. And a disc is faster under those circumstances. Was I at a disadvantage in the corners? Yes. Was it decisive? No.

Read Bicycling Science to get an idea how important aerodynamics are. I think the author is Walker.


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homsie
new member


Reged: 12/31/03
Posts: 23
Loc: San Ramon, CA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: flythebike]
#6669 - 09/30/05 06:15 PM (162.115.172.121)

I actually think not crashing is a bit of both...skill and luck. I've been fortunate not to have gone down because I usually try to ride at the front as well and I do watch riders that don't hold their line, etc. That being said, being in the first third of the pack is no guarantee that you'll be safe. All sorts of stuff can happen, especially during the last couple of laps of a crit. People get really aggressive and there are times when things happen so fast that you can't avoid going down, regardless of your skill level.

Anyway, have a good weekend riding.

JKames


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Lon
sage
*****

Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Hey Fly new [Re: flythebike]
#6670 - 09/30/05 07:00 PM (24.53.254.50)

Well Homsie needs to learn that on this forum we don't disagree just to be argumentative. To say staying out of accidents isn't skill is avoiding the obvious. It is also obvious to anyone reading that luck is always an issue whenever you are bike racing or not. Then after all that "who struck John" he agrees it is both...yawn a waste of time. It is best to be on a forum where folks like discussions that really don't go anywhere but have someone try to prove they know more than another.

The most cogent point you made was not racing 4 or 5 and thus being safer. I don't even race but it sure is easy to see at a crit. That is also why I don't think I'll ever race...I'd be lucky to get above 5 and those hot dogs scare me to death!

Please don't take this personally Homsie. Through the years we have worked very hard to keep this a pleasant forum to post upon. Our approach would have been to agree it is skill and that luck was still involved. Then you give first hand experiences that support that. Then everyone knows you race, they know that you know what you talking about and everybody is happy. I'm sure both of you have had instances where skill wasn't enough if the luck was bad enough or the luck was so bad that skill did not matter. It took several posts reach it was both luck and skill. If it isn't skill at all why has Postal/Discovery been so good at protecting Lance? Also if you watched Lance the year Tyler was hurt he either avoided crashes or avoided serious injury when his luck was bad. He did that through riding skill. Also drop back to his side trip through the field...riding skill saved the day where another rider is down along with Belocki.

Again no hard feeling Homsie. We keep this a happy home. Others forums are to disagree ours is to share knowledge. There are a lot of people that monitor this board who really know their stuff. Take fly for example...anyone racing above Cat 4 is way above average.

Take care and happy riding.


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homsie
new member


Reged: 12/31/03
Posts: 23
Loc: San Ramon, CA
Re: Hey Fly new [Re: Lon]
#6672 - 09/30/05 07:15 PM (162.115.172.122)

Lon/Fly,

I'm not disagreeing to just be argumentative. I am just expressing my views...which is what I thought forums were for. Sorry if you thought that I was just trying to stir the pot. I'm just posting what I've learned from racing in the 5's, 4's and now 3's.

BTW, Lance has a team dedicated to protecting him from crashes. Despite this, he's been involved in a couple of crashes....albeit not serious ones. None of us in the amateur racing ranks have a team that is as skilled or dedicated to protecting one rider.

I just happen to think that the rider makes the most difference in amateur racing. If Fly wants to use a disk, use a disk....I just happen to think that it wouldn't be the primary reason why a rider would win a race.

James

Quote:

Lon wrote:
Well Homsie needs to learn that on this forum we don't disagree just to be argumentative. To say staying out of accidents isn't skill is avoiding the obvious. It is also obvious to anyone reading that luck is always an issue whenever you are bike racing or not. Then after all that "who struck John" he agrees it is both...yawn a waste of time. It is best to be on a forum where folks like discussions that really don't go anywhere but have someone try to prove they know more than another.

The most cogent point you made was not racing 4 or 5 and thus being safer. I don't even race but it sure is easy to see at a crit. That is also why I don't think I'll ever race...I'd be lucky to get above 5 and those hot dogs scare me to death!

Please don't take this personally Homsie. Through the years we have worked very hard to keep this a pleasant forum to post upon. Our approach would have been to agree it is skill and that luck was still involved. Then you give first hand experiences that support that. Then everyone knows you race, they know that you know what you talking about and everybody is happy. I'm sure both of you have had instances where skill wasn't enough if the luck was bad enough or the luck was so bad that skill did not matter. It took several posts reach it was both luck and skill. If it isn't skill at all why has Postal/Discovery been so good at protecting Lance? Also if you watched Lance the year Tyler was hurt he either avoided crashes or avoided serious injury when his luck was bad. He did that through riding skill. Also drop back to his side trip through the field...riding skill saved the day where another rider is down along with Belocki.

Again no hard feeling Homsie. We keep this a happy home. Others forums are to disagree ours is to share knowledge. There are a lot of people that monitor this board who really know their stuff. Take fly for example...anyone racing above Cat 4 is way above average.

Take care and happy riding.




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Lon
sage
*****

Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Hey Homise new [Re: homsie]
#6673 - 09/30/05 08:11 PM (24.53.254.50)

Read me more carefully...your approach now is the way we go where everybody's opionion is valued. That is really what I meant. I thought both positions are valid and that is what I tried to say. My words were: "I'm sure both of you have had instances where skill wasn't enough if the luck was bad enough or the luck was so bad that skill did not matter." Lance is the perfect example it has been luck and skill.

However I have to side with Fly on his wheel choice. I bet many a person knowing what part aerodynamics play on speed, the course length, virtually no turns, no hills and a high skill level it would make a difference. A similar course that was a time trial you would see disc wheels all over in the pro ranks. I suspect that if more people owned one or thought of it he would not have been alone. Don't forget his words...he won "handily." I suspect he knows his competition and in turns knows that it did make a difference.

The greatest thing we overcome in getting down the road is air resistance...road is a distant second. That is why a team is so important in a sprint finish.


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homsie
new member


Reged: 12/31/03
Posts: 23
Loc: San Ramon, CA
Lon....I guess we'll just have to agree to disagre new [Re: Lon]
#6675 - 10/01/05 05:21 AM (69.104.90.83)

Lon, as much as I'd like to agree with you, there's something doesn't make sense here. First, how can there be no hills if the run into the finish is significantly downhill? Secondly, if you think that the disk being more aerodynamic is the reason he won the race...well that's just doesn't make any sense either. From the sounds of things here, he had to have made a big jump from 300M out and got a big enough gap to hold off the charging pack. This jump and seperation is likely what won the race...not the wheel being aerodynamic. Had he not jumped and achieved some seperation, but rather slowly accelerated to maximum terminal velocity, somebody could have matched his acceleration and sucked his wheel almost all the way to the finish...then likely come around him. Surely, you're not going to tell me that an rear disk wheel would help a person more than drafting somebody, are you?

James


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skuke
captain
*****

Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
Re: Lon....I guess we'll just have to agree to disagre new [Re: homsie]
#6677 - 10/01/05 06:25 AM (71.131.14.84)

Quote:

homsie wrote:
Secondly, if you think that the disk being more aerodynamic is the reason he won the race...well that's just doesn't make any sense either. From the sounds of things here, he had to have made a big jump from 300M out and got a big enough gap to hold off the charging pack. This jump and seperation is likely what won the race...not the wheel being aerodynamic. Had he not jumped and achieved some seperation, but rather slowly accelerated to maximum terminal velocity, somebody could have matched his acceleration and sucked his wheel almost all the way to the finish...then likely come around him. Surely, you're not going to tell me that an rear disk wheel would help a person more than drafting somebody, are you?

James




I'm tired of doing homework so I think I'll jump in.

I believe what Fly is trying to say is that the aero wheel allowed him to attain and maintain a higher top end. Yes, he needed the gap, but once he got it, nobody with a non-aero wheel would be able to attain or maintain the same top end speed as Fly.

If somebody had stayed on his wheel (they marked him or got lucky...) then all bets are off. The drafter could surely come around at the finish, aero wheels or not and other factors being reasonably equal (fitness, strength, power...)

Further more, if a racer believes that he has superior equipment, then that might be the psychological edge he needs. The equipment might even be a detriment, but as long as the the racer BELIEVES it works, then it does. Fly obviously gave much thought to his equipment choices based on his knowledge of the course, competition, own abilities... He BELIEVED the aero wheels would help him win based on his "homework". His team believed too, and worked to chase everything down.

Just my two cents thrown in for fun.

--------------------
Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151


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Insightdriver
captain
***

Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: homsie]
#6679 - 10/01/05 03:17 PM (67.161.185.252)

Quote:

homsie wrote:
Nice job, but I'm thinking that it usually comes down to rider strength, tactics, positioning and a bit of luck in crits.....versus your choice of a 404 or a disk. Personally, I wouldn't ever give up control for a little aero in a crit..

James




Alright, I've gone through this thread and decided to chime in here. Clearly you discount the aerodynamic effects of a zip wheel. Fine, live with that. Don't, however, try to invalidate someone else's belief that it helped them. That is the wrong approach. When do pro's use disk wheels and why do they use them? Now that you have that thought running, consider the reason. Now see if it can be applied to a race among mere mortals. If your conclusion is that the aerodynamic advantage is too small to matter, fine, be that way. I repeat, do not invalidate another person's belief just because you believe differently. That is all I'm trying to say.

You may very well be right, but being right does not mean you are charged with correcting anyone who believes differently. On the other hand, you may be wrong. Just consider that, you just may be wrong.

None of us here have enough information to correctly analyze the effects the zip wheel had. We have no test data, we have no race data. We have not examined the video, pictures or commentary. All we have is the commentary of the man who used the wheel and feels it helped him win the race. Personaly, for me, that's good enough. I made a simple congratulation for a job well done. I'm not here to pick apart someone's personal analysis. It boils down to you just picking on someone else, IMOHO.


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homsie
new member


Reged: 12/31/03
Posts: 23
Loc: San Ramon, CA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: Insightdriver]
#6680 - 10/01/05 04:51 PM (69.104.90.83)

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. Fly can believe what he wants. I'm just trying to say what I believe. I agree with him.....aero is faster and can be a factor. I just don't believe it was the main factor. If aero was the main factor (as in a time trial), then why not go with a skinsuit, aero helmet, booties, etc.? Just more stuff to think about.

James


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Insightdriver
captain
***

Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: homsie]
#6681 - 10/01/05 06:04 PM (67.161.185.252)

Re-read his posts now. Clearly he never said using the zip wheel was the main factor in his winning the race. In an effort to disount the advantage of an aero wheel in a race that he won you have lost sight of what he had said.

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homsie
new member


Reged: 12/31/03
Posts: 23
Loc: San Ramon, CA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: Insightdriver]
#6684 - 10/02/05 06:00 AM (69.104.90.83)

Insight, so why is it that you feel like it's your job to correct me or defend Fly? I'm just adding my two cents on what I feel are factors in winning a race. How about the same sort of consideration or me? Anyway, back to the discussion.

If you re-read his posts, he clearly states that the zip disk would be a significant advantage and he also suggests that I read a book about aerodynamics. He also states that it is a race where maximum terminal velocity is the decisive factor and that the disk is the faster wheel in this case. Sure sounds like he's making a case for the disk being the main reason why he won.

Why is it that nobody here can just acknowledge that there are other factors involved?

James


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skuke
captain
*****

Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: homsie]
#6685 - 10/02/05 06:30 AM (71.131.73.5)

Quote:

homsie wrote:
Why is it that nobody here can just acknowledge that there are other factors involved?






I agree! One of the main reasons the other racers lost is because they chose NOT to use a disk wheel.
...just playing :-)


"You're not paranoid. They ARE out to get you." That's a quote from some old movie that I can't remember the title of.

--------------------
Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151


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Lon
sage
*****

Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: skuke]
#6686 - 10/02/05 01:42 PM (24.53.254.50)

I am going to avoid exact quotes...I'm too lazy this morning In response to Homsie & how do you finish downhill without hills prior to it...you must be from NJ...you start on top of a hill. Also it takes very little downhill advantage to hammer. I could take any flatlander who mostly rode flats and show them a stretch of West Liberty Ave in Pittsburgh & they would declare it almost flat with an ever so slight downgrade if they saw it at all. Even fat old me can hit 45 on it given the proper motivation...In order to do 45 you need the right equipment, training and/or ability. If you don't believe me come to Pittsburgh if I ever rehab to that point and you'll prove it to yourself. If not I have a friend or two that you could run with. To support the psychological advantage of equipment...I think of Lance in pre Madone years being asked why he didn't ride the lighter climbing bike everyday. His response was twofold. First he said he really didn't need it & his major reason was psychological. He said he liked the "feeling" and and edge it gave him on a climbing day. I believe he said he felt faster then. Good enough for Lance...Also Homsie you commented on a leadout being more important that the wheel you must have missed. "Also, there was no luck involved here either. My teammate was perfect, shutting everything down, and then handing it to me with about 300-350 meters to go. That is a bit far out, but with the disc it wan't a problem. You put me on 36 spoke wheels though and somebody might have taken me. Yet, I think I still win that on a 404 rear, maybe just not by as much. But also, having the disc left me the freedom to jump from far away, and know I could hold it. I'm not a big believer in luck, at least, sometimes, you have to make your own luck."
Lastly thanks all of you who thought the "Fly" was the racer but that was Pintsized who probably very wisely opted out of this thread to "nowhere."


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Insightdriver
captain
***

Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: homsie]
#6688 - 10/02/05 07:51 PM (67.161.185.252)

Hello Homsie,

Let me try to give you a sincere and polite answer, not being arguementative.You said:

Quote:

I just happen to think that the rider makes the most difference in amateur racing. If Fly wants to use a disk, use a disk....I just happen to think that it wouldn't be the primary reason why a rider would win a race.




I believe that a person who has as much experience as Fly who has both kinds of wheels and feels the difference is most likely to be correct in his personal evaluation of what was significant that allowed his win. I do agree with your assesment in general, saying that a disk wouldn't be the primary reason a person would win the race. In fact, in general that is a correct statement. Fly, though, was in a specific situation where he evalutated that his disk wheel was significant. He did not say anything to the effect that it would give an advantage in general. He specifically stated that he evaluated the race, made a judgement call and won his race, with his teamate's help.

I acknowledge other factors are involved. Fly obviously is a disciplined and strong rider evidenced by his advancement in rank. That is one factor. Fly did say his teamate helped him; that is another factor. He also mentioned the course was a factor and the effect of previous races the others had done this season also being a factor. Obviously your statement nobobdy here acknowledges other factors involved is false.

IMOHO I believe what this discussion is boiling down to is Fly says, all other factors being equal, the disk wheel was his advantage in this particular race. I have the impression, and I could be wrong, that you do not believe the disk wheel had enough effect to be said that it helped him win, that other factors had to have been more prominent and that he is just making an inacurate evaluation. This is what I think the thread has devolved to.

In general, in the races like time trials among proffesionals, how aero the bike/rider system is does determine the winner. This clearly is one specific area where a disk wheel does make a difference. If it didn't, pros wouldn't bother with the tricky stuff like that.

In olympic track racing aero is what wins the race. Clearly, without a doubt. All modern track racing is done with disc wheels, teardrop helmets, skinsuits and shoe covers.

Fly made a good point. Drag increases by the square of the speed. What this means for bicycling is that power required to increase speed also goes up by the square. In bicycling science it does prove that wind resistance is the dominant force to overcome at 40mph. There is a lot of science involved. This is why in HPV competition, the record speed is higher than those achieved by Tour De France racers' HPV vehicles are fully-faired for one dominant reason, to reduce the drag. The best of the HPV competition riders are not as strong as Lance. In fact, in bicycling science, how much drag reduction any aero bit on a bike or rider is quantified. I'm sure there is data somewhere that quantifies just how much faster a rider can run 300 meters on a slight downhill with a disk wheel vs a 36 spoke wheel. The difference is real.


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flythebike
captain


Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
Re: Racing with Calfees, again new [Re: Insightdriver]
#6690 - 10/03/05 12:30 AM (70.17.102.81)

http://www.ncvc.net/modules.php?set_albumName=album40&id=cxa&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

That link gives the best shot of the finish (of a different race) that I have available. You can see in the distance that there is a downhill. If the race was run in the opposite direction, then the elevation gain would have been a decisive factor in the event. But in a race where the riders make the race (pro1/2/3) and there was a lot of speeding up and slowing down, a disc wheel would have been a bad choice, and indeed, I used it in that event and it was a hindrance.

Yes, my jump was good, and my position into the lead-up to the sprint was ideal. And I wasn't taxed because the race was pretty easy: steady at about 90 percent of max for most of the race, and I didn't waste any energy chasing stuff down because I had the Cat 3 season-points-winner working for me. The guy on my wheel, I picked him off of me when I went around my leadout man, and my jump was good enough to pretty much ride him off my wheel. At this point, the disc isn't really decisive. But when that hill ends and you're on flat ground, and you're going 40 miles an hour plus in a 53x11, the last 150 meters look like a long way to go, and your legs are on fire. I passed the 200 meter sign and was like, ah, that far? If you slow down, somebody is going to get you. I planned that I'd be in the lead, at that point, and already going maximum speed. So, under those conditions, a disc is an aid. Also, in a crosswind, it acts like a sail, and I mean in the slightest crosswind, which there almost always is. Assuming I have the lead there, and have reached maximum speed, all I have to do there is maintain my speed to the line and nobody can pass me, even if they did get on my wheel when I jumped. Also, a disc will increase the maximum possible speed, assuming I don't run out of gears.

Here is a link to Zipp's section on aerodynamics: http://www.zipp.com/tech/aero.shtml. I can't pretend that I have understood it all, much less gone to NASA's site as they suggest. Clearly, it is more current than Wilson's (not Walker's) book. But, extrapolating from the chart here: http://www.zipp.com/tech/documents/AeroOverviewData2.pdf you can estimate that the drag on my rear wheel was about 1/10th of that compared to those riders on Kysriums (somewhat similar in drag to a 2004 Zipp 303 for purposes of comparison). I don't have the math to translate this into added watts, but I think it is significant. Again the guys I beat are all real strong, have won races this year, so it was a good idea to seek any legal technical advantage.

And thus, the bottom line is that it was a competitive advantage. I'm sure I would have won the race anyway, because I made the right moves, I was highly motivated, and I was very fit. I had won a race on the same course ten years ago so I had a good idea of what would work. I had won my last mass start race, so I was very confident. But in the 1995 race, I hit the front much, much later (on a pair of Zipp's old 440s), right at 200 meters. I also won that race by a similar margin, about two bike lengths. But I mostly pulled away from the rider on my wheel in the last 200 meters, instead of taking a lead into that part of the race (I had faster wheels, a better jump, and a 54x12, he was 53x12). Somebody videotaped that race, and I've probably seen it 100 times, so I really knew the finish. In this race I just know I looked to my left at 300-350 meters and somebody was jumping, and my teammate was fading, so I went for it, because my experience suggests that on that course, once you hit the bottom of the hill, you have reached maximum velocity, and at most you can make up about half a bike length on someone, and often times you get boxed in, so it is better to take the lead early, and never let it go. Also, as people noted, having the disc was also a psychological advantage as well as a competitive one, in those last 150 meters where the road kicks up just enough to make your legs burn, knowing that I had that advantage helped me to gut out that last kick. That, and one of my teammates on the sideline, and my best friend, screaming at the top of their lungs to go, and knowing that my wife and baby were also there.

If you look at how close the finishes were in this race, it doesn't follow to say that equipment only matters to the pros. Even amogst highly trained amateurs, equipment makes a difference. The margin of victory that I had suggests that the wheel made some difference, although without doing the math, you can't really say for sure how much of a difference. And yes, the faster you go, the more aerodynmics matter, and that sprint is so fast, the disc certainly helped. Without doing a whole lot of math, with data I don't have, there is no way to say if I would have won with or without it. All I can say is that I took it for a test ride that morning, and I was amazed at how much faster it felt as compared to my normal wheel. And on a rolling course with no sharp hills, that is another factor, lesser rider fatigue over the length of the event, leading to more power at the finish. This is why a team like CSC is using a very aerodynamic setup in all but the most mountainous races, almost always using 404s, and the Soloist Carbon, because even while drafting in the peloton, wind resistance is still a significant cause of rider fatigue. You might have noticed that Discover finally got a deep rimmed carbon wheel into service at the Tour de France this year, so I think they have also realized that aerodynamics matter greatly in cycling.

I intended to win this race, and I wasn't going to let anything stop me. Not even the wind!


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Lon
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Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Sorry Fly...It's Not Me It's the Head Injury :) new [Re: flythebike]
#6694 - 10/03/05 01:29 PM (24.53.254.50)

Ugh...when I said the racer wasn't Fly I forgot I'm Lon on this forum and not CalfeeFly which is what I picked at Serotta. Since this thread (as was so well stated) devolved to this I forgot it was my beloved Calfee forum. Plus the head injury doesn't help...I would not have thought that out of a broken back, crushed foot and a head injury the biggest problem would continue to be the head.

I apologize Fly I meant me not you. Look at it on the bright side I did present your case well...I'm just not sure where I am all the time.

You may race as a Cat 3 but in the general scheme of things that is no more of an amateur as is a 10 to 12 scratch golfer. They seem to downplay their skill as well but compared to the majority of folks with clubs they are pros.

Good luck with the racing. I'm sorry again about the mix-up.


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flythebike
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Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
Re: Sorry Fly...It's Not Me It's the Head Injury : new [Re: Lon]
#6697 - 10/03/05 02:45 PM (66.7.29.142)

Hey thats cool Lon, no worries. Just get well, and don't worry! I was sort of impressed by how all the regulars jumped in on my behalf. And yeah this forum is pretty special in that it tends to be very respectful. And yeah, its gone from: Wow neato hey everybody I won a race AGAIN, ohmygosh TWO IN A ROW, to snipe, bicker, argue. And people's posts tend to actually get acknowledged here, unlike many other forums where you can make a perfectly good point and everyone ignores it.

Reading Lance Armstrong's book "Every Second Counts" (worth checking out from the library, for sure) only reinforces my decision to use that wheel. He writes about how detail-oriented he is, looking for every edge, both in training and equipment. He is "Mr. Milimeter" to others. But in his own mind he is really "Mr. Micrometer." It is easy to shrug it off and say we're just amateurs, it doesn't matter. If that is so then go out on a 25 pound bike with 36 spoke wheels and see how far you get, and how fast you get there. He says on about page 150 "The Tour is essentially a math problem, a 2,000 mile race over threee weeks that's sometimes won by a margin of a minute or less...Every second counts. (Lecturing Floyd Landis:) 'You had to be willing to examine any small part of your body or the bike to find extra time, ...to look for fractions of seconds in something as small as the sleeves of your jersey. 'Once you reach a certain level, everyone is good, and everyone trains hard,' I said. The difference is who is more meticulous, willing to find the samallest increments of time, and as you get older and more experienced, the percentage gains grow smaller and smaller."

Riding this weekend with my old club reminded me how far I've come in the last three years. Whenever my two new teammates or I would pull, the speed would go up 2-3 miles per hour, and like 6-8 guys would get dropped, even on a flat road. So there really is a pretty big difference between strong 4/5 riders and 1/2/3 class riders. And the difference between a really strong 2 and a new cat three is also quite a gulf.


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Lon
sage
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Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Sorry Fly...It's Not Me It's the Head Injury : new [Re: flythebike]
#6700 - 10/03/05 04:03 PM (24.53.254.50)

Between a 3 and me at my best is the Grand Canyon. HOWEVER I am persistent and I used to say I've never quit a ride. (Last summer I had to due to hyponatremia and I was really sick with no balance. I would have continued on in the flats but I was about to a major ridge or two in the Allegheny Mts.)

There is no doubt when you improve aero you get faster. All one has to do is get on the drops and look at your speed. It is rocket science.

People have come and gone from our forum. Generally those who are not into our approach get bored and leave. Especially if we ignore them. That is really how we "grew" our forum to what it is today. It is fortunate there are enough loyal Calfee folks and folks riding Calfees that like the format that we continue on with sufficient posts. Some of the other makes get very little traffic.

I think a great deal is many of us did and still do buy the a Calfee for all the right reasons. They still are not all that well known or rank high in look at what I'm on appeal. Those type of people ride their Merlins, Litespeeds and other "name" prestige brands. Even if they know the name most folks really don't know that much.

A funny thing happened last summer. Since Craig got so much press play the last few years we have picked up some people similar to those who rode Merlins in Central Park 7 years ago if you get my drift. I was on a ride and my bike was in a stand. Some guy came up and asked if that was a Luna (as though it were a Huffy) and proceeded to tell me he had a Tetra. I was concerned about something and not really paying attention and in a matter of fact way I said no it is a Fly with no sticker. His reaction was funny. I don't think he could fathom owning a Fly with no Dragonfly sticker.


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Lon
sage
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Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Bikes new [Re: flythebike]
#6701 - 10/03/05 04:07 PM (24.53.254.50)

I did not realize that was your track bike until now. That is a really cool bike.

By the way I meant to say you just realized how far you've come...yesterday was my first ride since July 12. I did an 11 mile ride at a blistering 8.4 mph! I took my break at 5.5 miles. I just realized how much I fell even with all the work I did to try not to. It was funny that 15 mph felt fast. I can't help but wonder what the first 50 + mph downhill will feel like!


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flythebike
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Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
Re: Sorry Fly...It's Not Me It's the Head Injury : new [Re: Lon]
#6705 - 10/03/05 04:49 PM (66.7.29.142)

Ha, that's funny Lon, my D-Fly doesn't have a sticker either.

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