Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Alright folks,
I was passing around fliers about my stolen bike at local bike shops. At one the guy, who I get a very good impression that he is passionate about proper bike fit, shows me Scott bikes he has, full carbon. I've never heard of them before and went to their web site when I got home. I don't know when they got started in bike manufacturing. Does anyone here know anything about them?
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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They have been one of the most popular bikes for years in Europe. Although an American Company they had pulled out of the US market. They are the same Scott that made the aero bars that were instrumental in Lemond's win over Hinault.
They decided to get back into the US market. Gram for gram and Dura-Ace for Dura-Ace they give you more bike for your dollar than anyone. I believe it is because they want to establish themselves fast. They bike gets great reviews. It is very stiff to the degree that some people feel it is too stiff and some don't. The bike uses a new approach to joining the tubes. It also is one of the lightest frames on the market today. In dollars per gram it is the least expensive too.
In is Asian built but in their factories. Their dealer will most probably be a top dealer if they picked dealer there the way they did in Pittsburgh. Here they identified the two best shops in two different areas of town and that was it. Although others wanted them they could not get them.
However for you fit could be an issue. Who knows?
In reference to visiting Craig. I just saw him quoted as saying that only 10 percent of people need a custome frame. So if anyone can fit you to a stock frame it is Craig. I'd rather have a Calfee than a Scott. Get this week's Business Week. There is an article on high end bikes and Craig and Ben are both quoted liberally. (That is where I saw that quote.) 
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Hi again, Lon,
This puts me in a quandary now. My LBS guy says he strongly reccomends me to get a full custom frame because any stock frame would make a compromise in ideal fit for me.
If the the best bang for a full-carbon bike is a Scott then why would you prefer a Calfee? If it is an emotional decision, fine, but if there is a practical reason, like, fit, strength, longevity or whatever, then let me know how you feel it is. There is only one Scott dealer in Sacramento. This shop has a range of high-end mountain bikes, road bikes and snow boards. I have the definate impression that the guys in this shop are passionate about biking fit and helping a shopper get the right bike for their needs.
I just asked my LBS guy in an email to give me a quote on an exact replacement for my stolen bike as it would cost today. I am going to fax that information to my insurance company.
In my way of thinking the frame is one part of a total machine that a bike is. Assuming two frames are within a pound of weight of each other and having the same modulus of stiffness and the same geometry, if I had the same components on both of them, just how much difference would I notice? I think a one-pound diference between two, otherwise identically form and function bikes including my weight is such a small percentage I would notice it, but it would be insignificant. I weigh 168 pounds, adding 18 pounds would be 186 pounds total. 187 pounds makes the difference one percent between two bikes one pound apart in weight.
In my way of thinking, every descriptive word for the quality of the ride of a bike can be correlated with some measureable physical paramater, whether it be center of gravity, stiffness in the bottom bracket, resonant frequence, whatever. I read an article about a scientist who analyzed a rare Stradivarius violin. Everything that contributed to the character, the kind of wood, it's density, the moisture content, the shaping, the size, the varnish coating, the bridge material and characteristics, on and on. All that information was put into a computer program. The guy then took a board, put on strings and electronic pick-ups then ran the output into a program that created the characteristics that the Stradivarius had. With sophisticated measurements of both instruments they were audibly identical. In blind tests, master violinists could not tell the difference between them. They were floored when they saw what they were listening to. The point being every physical characteristic of something is measurable to a sensitivity far beyond the ability of human senses to determine.
A simpler way of describing my point of view is that I believe whatever we sense with our senses can be measured. I do not buy into an idea that there is a sixth-sense that science cannot detect. For me it boils down to what does a Calfee frame have that a Scott frame doesn't?
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 375
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Their awesome full suspension mountain bikes aren't available yet here.
Or are they...?
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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They are still tied up in the courts on the suspension.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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A Calfee is a limited production, meticulously crafted, hand-made bike manufactured in the USA. Scott is a production bike made in the Far East. That is reason one. I prefer having something unique, American and handcrafted.
You would really need to ride a Scott to know how you like it. It will not ride like a Calfee. Craig's bike are known for being stiff yet extremely comfortable. I have heard more than one person say that they felt the Scott was overly stiff. I would discount it but one was extremely knowledgeable, raced pro for 17 years and had raced part-time the year before on Merx aluminum. He liked stiff.
I said they were known as the best value and not that I thought they were. The best value to me is the one that I have to buy things only once. I get the seat I want for example and not the seat in a production bikes specs.
I also think the Luna is not surpassed by any bike for bang for your buck. I could buy that and build up a Luna EXACTLY the way I want it for less than a Scott. That takes time, effort and knowledge that not everyone has or wants to put into a purchase.
Which would you prefer for the comparable prices?
A handmade USA car or a production Chinese car?
Handmade, handsewn USA shoes (Think Cole Hann) or Chinese production shoes? (Think Pay Less)
Handmade USA shirt (think POLO) or Chinese production shirt (think Walmart)
I think you see where I am going. My Luna is in a different league than the majority of other bikes. For example my Kestrel is not the bike the Luna is. Does that make my Kestrel an inferior bike? Far from it...had I never owned the Calfee I would not have known the difference.
As I said pick up the current Business Week. They write up Calfee, Serotta & other high end bikes...they don't include Scott or Cannondale. They are both good bikes but I know which I would pick.
You put way too much trust in someone with a financial motive to tell you that a custom bike is the only way to go. When I knew Craig was in a league of his own was when after my describing myself, my riding and such he told me to get a Luna. He felt there was no need to put the extra money into a Tetra. The odds of a retailer being that honest are the same as the bike...about one in ten. I was in retail and I've been in sales for 30 years. I know of which I speak. How do you tell how hones they are? Ask them a very hard & touchy question that will cost them a good bit of money based on the answer as though you don't know but know the answer. It is sad but the majority of folks sell their souls for the dollar.
After talking to Craig I asked him if he was friends with Richard Schwinn knowing he would have responded the same way. He was and I wasn't surprised.
There is only one Scott dealer because as I said they wanted one or two quality dealers not 4 mediocre ones.
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 375
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
Lon wrote:
They are still tied up in the courts on the suspension.
Oh yea...that sticky situation with Specialized. I knew that! 
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Quote:
Lon wrote:
A Calfee is a limited production, meticulously crafted, hand-made bike manufactured in the USA. Scott is a production bike made in the Far East. That is reason one. I prefer having something unique, American and handcrafted.
I personally prefer a frame (since bike parts are either European or Japanese) that is a quality made product and I don't care if precision came from machines or hand-building.
You would really need to ride a Scott to know how you like it. It will not ride like a Calfee. Craig's bike are known for being stiff yet extremely comfortable. I have heard more than one person say that they felt the Scott was overly stiff. I would discount it but one was extremely knowledgeable, raced pro for 17 years and had raced part-time the year before on Merx aluminum. He liked stiff.
I agree with you about having to test ride the bike before determining if I would like one. I discount any anecdotal comments since everyone perceives things with their own bias. Besides experiences vary from person to person based on a lot of factors.
I said they were known as the best value and not that I thought they were. The best value to me is the one that I have to buy things only once. I get the seat I want for example and not the seat in a production bikes specs.
For me, best value is also predicated on reliability and durability. In addition for me it is important, being frugal, that anything I buy be of median price at most, not the most expensive of a particular product. Calfee bikes are very competitive with other small frame builders but not known as the cheaper provider of carbon frames.
I also think the Luna is not surpassed by any bike for bang for your buck. I could buy that and build up a Luna EXACTLY the way I want it for less than a Scott. That takes time, effort and knowledge that not everyone has or wants to put into a purchase.
As I posted already, a Luna is out of the question for me. Why would I compromise with a stock geometry if I am better-served to get the custom geometry I need for perfect fit? For your information, my LBS forwarded my measurements to Craig and Craig came up with the dimensions of my Tetra Pro. It wasn't my LBS that set the dimensions of the bike. If I was to be served as well on a stock Tetra Pro, wouldn't Craig have told my LBS? The whole process was a back and forth collaboration that went through a couple of different iterations before the order was actually placed.
I agree that Luna is a very competiviely-priced bike, as it is supposed to be. It is a moot point for me, though.
Which would you prefer for the comparable prices?
A handmade USA car or a production Chinese car?
I know I could not afford a hand-made car of any manufacturer. If they were of the same price, I would have serious doubts toward the quality of the American product if it was a hand-made one. It does seem, though, that most people in the US prefer the quality of highly-automated mass production cars that come from Japan, go figure.
Handmade, handsewn USA shoes (Think Cole Hann) or Chinese production shoes? (Think Pay Less)
I would choose neither for the cost of handsewn, in the US, is prohibitive and I prefer something more in the middle of the road.
Handmade USA shirt (think POLO) or Chinese production shirt (think Walmart)
I do have a preference for the homemade clothing my wife makes for she is an excellent seamstress. She uses sewing machines, however. All shirts from major manufacturers are mostly machine-made. Anything handmade in the US demands a premium price, but not necessarily premium quality. I've never seen anyone who can sew a better stitch than a machine can. By the way, I collect antique sewing machines so I know a bit of history and how fast the machines replaced hand-sewing, all over the industrialized world.
I think you see where I am going. My Luna is in a different league than the majority of other bikes. For example my Kestrel is not the bike the Luna is. Does that make my Kestrel an inferior bike? Far from it...had I never owned the Calfee I would not have known the difference.
I grant that the Luna is a very good bike. It is a moot point as I said before. Besides many people consider those of us with high-end bikes to be crazy to spend so much on a mere bicycle.
As I said pick up the current Business Week. They write up Calfee, Serotta & other high end bikes...they don't include Scott or Cannondale. They are both good bikes but I know which I would pick.
No arguement here. If money weren't a big issue with me I'd buy the best of everything.
You put way too much trust in someone with a financial motive to tell you that a custom bike is the only way to go. When I knew Craig was in a league of his own was when after my describing myself, my riding and such he told me to get a Luna. He felt there was no need to put the extra money into a Tetra. The odds of a retailer being that honest are the same as the bike...about one in ten. I was in retail and I've been in sales for 30 years. I know of which I speak. How do you tell how hones they are? Ask them a very hard & touchy question that will cost them a good bit of money based on the answer as though you don't know but know the answer. It is sad but the majority of folks sell their souls for the dollar.
See above where it was Craig Calfee, upon analyzing my body measurements that concurred with my LBS that a custom geometry is what suits me best.
After talking to Craig I asked him if he was friends with Richard Schwinn knowing he would have responded the same way. He was and I wasn't surprised.
There is only one Scott dealer because as I said they wanted one or two quality dealers not 4 mediocre ones.
Peace. So you agree that Scott picks only quality dealers for their re-emergence as a bicycle manufacturer in the US market. I got the impression I was in a quality dealership. My wife had the same impression as I did and she has a strong business-sense being a contractor herself.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Insight,
No need for Peace as I wasn't upset. You asked the question... Of course there were some experiences you had that I wasn't aware of. I'd still visit Craig and Dean. It would be a nice day if nothing else.
I wish you luck. Don't forget to check the warranty. They can vary a great deal. Some folks forget that and find out the hard way. (Some European bikes are one year.)
I wish you all the best. I hope you get something you enjoy that is the main point. It is too bad insurance companies are not more generous except in granting themselves rate increases. 
Take care.
P.S. When can I send my shirt measurements? I figure a bike in exchange for the advice of a "sage." 
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Hi Lon,
I made a decision last night. I'm going to get another custom Tetra Pro. I'm going to discuss some issues with my LBS guy on fit because I had ridden my original Calfee over 1200 miles since I got it. One thing about my bike is I had a signifcant toe overlap with my front wheel. I want that minimized on me subsequent bike. I'm going to shift over to the Calfee section of the forum to go into more details on bike fit.
Peace, not because I thought you were upset but because I don't wish to be argumentative.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Insight,
I apologize for the slow response. I had another surgery yesterday so that was shot and today was a VERY slow day. Last year two of my best friends died and this year I've had always these health problems which were by my company making me their next "old age" target. I knew it was coming but I didn't know when. Fairly soon I won't know anybody in a company that I've worked for since 1977. That is very weird.
I really think you are making a wise decision. One thing I learned (more than once unfortunately) is that it is much less expensive to buy something once. Anytime I try to save some money on bike stuff I end up getting what I originally really wanted later since I'm not happy with what I bought. Trust me the Calfee will have you spoiled. I also have a Kestrel that is also an excellent bike (but not a Calfee. It is an older USA made 200 SCI. I had the Kestrel about a year or two and I got the top Cannondale Team Frame for a great price from a friend at C-Dale. I built it up and rode it 3 times. I had always liked a Dale's ride but something was amiss. After about 25 miles I felt whipped. I'm a little slow on the update. For example I NEVER realize it is a tail wind until I turn around into it. Then on the 3rd ride it dawned on me that it was that I was spoiled by carbon fiber. I rode the Kestrel the next day and confirmed it. I sold the C-Dale asked what I had in it so it went fast. I still had the warranty card so somebody got a killer deal.
I agree the toe overlap should not have been on your Tetra. I'd still ride down to Calfee. It is a huge investment for 25 years possibly. It is worth one day of your time. You really have to see a person rather than just see numbers on a page. Plus it will give another perspective. Not everyone fits you the same way. Please keep me up to date. It is against the law for me to drive until around February if not later, my foot hasn't healed and my back is still broken. Plus my head injury only gets worse in that as I become a little more cognizant of myself I realize how screwed up I am!
In other words...I'm not going anywhere!
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Ron,
Good luck to you. I appreciate all that you are saying to me. It makes me feel like you are a good friend and that is a good feeling. I have to patient now, waiting for a response from the insurance company. Only after I get a settlement will I know how much money will come out of my pocket. Only when I have the money saved up can I actually move on making an order. Heal up and take care of yourself.
Cheers,
Ed
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rnhood
friend
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 40
Loc: NC
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I too believe going with another Calfee is a very good move. I own a Tetra Custom, custom here meaning the head angle was cracked off to 73.5, bottom bracket dropped to 8.0, and a 1cm headtube extension with the corresponding slight sloping top tube. Basically it has the goemetry that used to be standard for a 62cm Serotta bike. While the bike is stiff, very stiff actually (it has the super stiff tubes) it rides beautifully - efficient, quiet and refined. And, exhibits absolutely zero shimmy whether going 30 or 60mph on a fast descent. It's the only bike that I have ever owned that mitigated the laborous effort of going uphill. It's laborous on any bike but, I just always have the impression when riding that there is an efficiency about this bike that just seems to elude all others I have ridden. All this is important when riding in the hills of SW Virginia where all streets seemingly lead straight up or, straight down. Probably a lot like Pittsburgh - but thinking further about it, I don't know if any town has more extreme hills than Pittsburgh.
I wear size 46 Sidi shoes and don't have toe overlap issues. I don't quite understand how overlap conditions exist for you unless the frame is borderline small. I am 6'2" with a 91cm PBH. I ride an 81cm saddle height with the Sidi shoes and SPD-SL cleats. I don't know how a bike could be more comfortable. 62 is the minimum size frame that I can fit on comfortably. A 63cm Cannondale fits me fine too. I only bring this up to point out that there has been a move of late to put people on frames too small. Not that this is the culprit of your toe overlap but, it may be worth looking at. This sizing issue has been beat to death lately so I won't say anymore about it.
I am in the market of a second bike too and want a randonneuring or touring geometry and set-up. Since my plan is to have a Nitto rack, fender and rack mounts, etc., it appears this must also be a custom Tetra as the Luna is not available with these classic touring features. I don't like the price of the Tetra Custom but, looking at other carbon options there doesn't appear to be much savings - although I have not checked on a Scott. I want a "credit card" type touring bike as I don't intend on riding loaded. Just want a bike that I can put a gym bag on and ride to the gym. Or buy a couple books at Borders and come home. "Tournesol" has a nice carbon bike for this purpose and it is also on my list of considerations. I believe it is built by Parlee. But it's hard for me to imagine how a carbon bike can be any better than the Calfee. It's just a known entity. Look closely at the frame construction and it becomes immediately obvious that considerable craftsmanship is resident.
If I have any complaint on my Calfee, it is one of stiffness. Which, should not be discounted since this adds into the ride equation. In the hills of SW Virginia, there is no bike I would rather ride. On the flats of Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill (my current home) where pot holes and imperfections abound, I am required to keep my eyes glued to the road ahead. Maybe this is considered normal but, I ride for enjoyment and don't like to always watch the road immediately in front of my wheel. I sometimes wish for a slightly more forgiving front end on rougher pavement - the type pavement that often exists when riding roads off the beaten path of traffic. With the Ouzo Pro fork, tire size is limited so there is not much help here. Assuming I go with another Calfee, the next fork will likely be a Wound Up which can take a larger tire (unless I can find an equally quality fork that will take an even larger tire). That, along with the greater wheelbase and more relaxed geometry of a touring type frame should be just the ticket.
Having said all that, a steel bike is not out of my consideration either. Obviously they have an excellent reputation for touring set-ups and, I've been eyeing that Tournesol steel frame as well as that Spectrum frame (25th anniversary). They are really beautiful frames equally laden with craftsmanship.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I once read that the "West Virginia" that John Denver waxed poetic about in his song was really Western Virgina. I know a lot of us looked at parts of the state and scratched our collective heads. 
We sure have the hills in Pittsburgh. On the Dirty Dozen our infamous late November ride they hit them well over 20 percent. My problem on the super steep hills is that I can't keep my front wheel down.
On your "steep" issue...it is probably the super stiff tubing. Going back to the original "Phorum" there were larger riders that were going to get it and Craig said it really wasn't needed. As I recall his one position was that the larger the frame the stiffer he made it anyhow and that to make it stiffer yet often was not necessary. My hypotheses is that your former location and number of hills prompted him or your dealer to go with that tubing.
I am a big fan in actually talking with Craig. I'm sure happy I did before my first Calfee. To make a long story short I very well might have bought a Tetra for all the wrong reasons. Craig questioned me a great deal and we discussed what I wanted in a bike and how I rode. He saw no need for me to spend more and get a Tetra. That was when I knew for ABSOLUTELY sure he was a VERY special kind of person. Not many would recommend a considerably less expensive choice much less say that if I did not have a lot of money I'd be wasting my money to get a Tetra.
It is another long story but I ended up with a Fly too. The Luna is every bit the bike just heavier and in my case... If asked by a weekend warrior without unlimited means to go a Luna with the best parts or compromise parts for a Tetra the answer is simple.
I enjoyed talking with you and welcome to our board. You will enjoy it. We don't get the "hits" of others so the flamers have been few. Those we have had leave as we don't take their bait we just say bye-bye.
Don't forget the cross bike as an option for your all purpose bike. Then you truly would have have the best of all in tire choices, brakes, racks and such. I'd also give Craig a call and discuss the small changes you had made before and see where it would stand on that frame. I'd strongly consider that frame for what you want otherwise you won't really feel that you have a different yet equal frame. I'd also discuss the need for super stiff tubing. This again because the cross may be stiff to begin with and also the change in geography. I'd think if you are headed for the hills you would take the Tetra. I'd also strongly consider nude. My Fly is nude. I may not have had the guts to go nude but the choice was easy as it was financial. I never regretted that either. It grows on you very quickly and for an all purpose bike is the only choice as paint just does not stick all that well to any carbon bike.
Lastly do you fly much on vacation or whatever? Another idea for all purpose weight isn't a huge deal are the S & S couplers. Then it folds into a suitcase or backpack and off you go. One guy on the old Phorum backpacked in Europe with one.
I lied one more thing... Peter White Cycles has fenders that are carbon fiber. You may want to check them out. Also a shop in Portland has gorgeous rare hardwood fenders to die for. I'm building an all purpose bike to rehab on as we speak and I'm putting fenders on it. They are not only for rain but also on the limestone Rails to Trails and such to keep the dirt down off of me and the bike. I put on Planet Bike Hardcore Freddy Fenders. I really like the look. This isn'w what I'd want for my only bike...I'll take my Fly please once I get another crank...but for its purpose it is great and funky.
I'm still lying. Another reason I recommend the Cross is my above experience. Some things I wanted to do I can't due to clearance issues and lacks of mounts. I used a frame I had so I've had to make compromises.
If you plan a triple hurry!!! The Dura Ace Triple parts are dirt cheap right now. I just saw the crank for 139 brand new. The other parts are equally cheap. They are bringing out the new 10 speed soon. Another idea is to take a ring off unless you need it in the future. That price for a D/A crank is a killer. To worry if your all purpose bike has one more "click" or nothing I personally would worry about.
If you want to chat about the all purpose bike "live" drop me a note. Since I'm disabled I have time to call. I read a lot and I've been planning a similar bike for awhile.
A couple more Cross reasons...1. Any cross bike owner I know are all top riders and all LOVE them. 2. It would be a different bike none of the others really would Calfee or not. When I first got the Fly I ended up using the same parts list from the Luna...I had them and money was an issue again...to be honest blindfolded I would not have known which was which. I slowly put a completely different type of build on the Fly and I like the two together much more now. If I had the money my Luna would get the couplers so I'd have an awesome travel bike. Whether I flew or not any form of travel would be so much easier with it. Plus I have no idea when or if I'll ever drive a car again.
Are you retired or have vacation time? (The move had me wondering.) If so and you have some airline miles or the money I'd go visit Craig. You would have fun, get to ride a cross possibly etc. etc. etc. One reason I am a huge fan of the visit isn't because I was able to do it but again back to the old Phorum. Some folks there did and not only enjoyed themselves but made a better choice because of the visit. If time is available look back over the old Phorum. There were some outstanding members that we lost in the transition time to this one. They made some excellent points most of which were from personal experience.
Good luck.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Rnhood, welcome to the forum.I very much like the kinds of thoughtful posts you are Ron have made in this thread. This is not a heavily-travelled board like some I belong to. There is definately a higher-caliber level of posting here as a result.
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