Saxon
friend
Reged: 12/23/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Sacramento, CA
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While riding my usual loop on the American River bike trail last week, I had a close call. At times on the trail, parents have their children out for a nice family ride. One particular father seemed hell bent to collect on some insurance money (or he just wanted his little daughter out of the way). While descending in a pack, down one of the steeper parts of the trail, my group approached the bottom of a hill at about 25 mph. A father, his wife and daughter (who looked to be about 7 years old) were stopped at the bottom of the hill on the other side of the trail. As we approached them, the father gave his daughter a quick shove up the hill. Being too steep for her, she faltered and almost fell into our group, but she turned sharply and put her feet out. She luckily stopped on her side of the trail as we passed safely. We all shook our heads and rode on. About 12 miles later, we were on the other side of the river and completing our loop on the trail. This part of the trail has a few sharp, blind corners that are challenging to take at speed, but I always (luckily) take them slowly in the fall because the trail is covered with a blanket of leaves. Anyway... I'm at the front of the group on my Tetra and as I turn into one of the tight curves, the SAME GUY shoves his little daughter ACROSS the bike trail, ACROSS our lane right in front of me! I applied my brakes, but knew I was going to hit her. I squeezed the brakes a little harder and went into a beautiful, controlled skid. In full skid mode, the bike still handled like a dream and I slowed down just enough to miss her by inches. I never went down, but skidded to a stop and without even unclipping, just started peddling again. I was a little shook up, but that didn't stop me from yelling at the father "VERY STUPID!". Reflecting on it with the others in my group, it's almost inconceivable that someone would be so reckless with their child. I kissed my Calfee when I finished the ride. I still can't get over how controlled the bike felt while in that skid. But I'm soooo thankful it was!
Ride safe,
Rich
Edited by Saxon (12/07/05 02:56 AM)
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Hey Saxon,
Good story. By the way, when I recieve my new Calfee I would enjoy meeting you on the trail. I ride it regularly. It is amazing how some people are. And I know what you mean about how good the handling is on a Calfee bike. I had taken a few turns too fast on it and braked in the turn and had my tail slip, yet was able to recover without going down.
Cheers
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Saxon
friend
Reged: 12/23/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Sacramento, CA
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Sure! I bet we've already passed each other a few times on the trail. Maybe when the weather gets a little nicer we can get some kind of group ride together with people in the area.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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send me a line on my home email if you are to:
edward.casey@comcast.net
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Kevan
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 70
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Bike trails... heck, they are more dangerous than trafficked roads. One of our club ride leaders turned our gang of 8-10 riders briefly onto our local path on a nice autumn weekend, a year or so back. Slippery leaves on the ground, kids, dogs, iPod-plugged rollerbladers and a group of cyclists doing speeds in the upper teens, low 20's was enough for me to drop back and leave the potential unhappiness that lay just up ahead to others. Nope, not for me. I posted an email to my club membership and everyone that responded agreed we didn't belong on the path.
Saxon, I'm glad to read the bike saved you and the little girl. The father's actions go to show you just how little most people understand about bicycles. Now think about that same guy driving his car past you on the road. Honestly we got to be out of our freakin' minds doing what we love.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Here in the Spokane area, we have several hundred miles of paths, all shared with walkers, joggers, bladers, horses and bikes. The speed limit is 15mph, though when on a bike it's hard to keep to it.
I agree that, often, non-bikers do things that can imperil us when we ride, but the paths are not exclusively ours and we must take care when riding the them.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
Edited by Dave_Thompson (12/12/05 02:45 PM)
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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The situation has gotten out of hand because of quite a few reasons, the main thing among others are cities with not enough designated paths for all those who are using them. Along with this are the way many of these paths are designed, with narrow widths and many blind corners with encroaching limbs and vegetation, this causes persons to not see others coming the other way till the last second regardless of their forward speed.
Excessive speeds by persons dont help either, and the 'bike police' have their hands full during the main paths busy hours.
This year in Calgary Alberta alone there have been numerous crashes involving joggers, rollerbladers and runners,especially those wearing mp3 players, a total receipe for disaster.
Unfortunately the cyclists arent any help either with speeding, and as recently in late summer of 05 a cyclist hit another path user head-on; one of many such occurances that happens during the year related to users of the paths.
This time the accident was deadly and one of the persons involved died.
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Its time to ride.
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Kevan
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 70
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Allen,
That's an impressive network of paths you folk have there. I was in town on business back in October and am very fond of that city. What I thought was particularly intriguing was one path made its way from the city central up along Deerfoot trail (highway) to the airport. Maybe next time I'll pedal to our office there.
Not surprisingly mtb's rule there, but I was surprised at just how few road bikes you do see.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Opinions are one thing; facts are another. Can someone show us all the actual facts on where the most cycling accidents occurr? I seem to remember a while ago I read that the majority of accidents happen at intersections on city streets, not bike paths. In my opinion the most dangerous place to ride would be where the most accidents happen. I believe a bike path, not being open to motor vehicles is a lot safer than city streets.
In two years of riding on the American River Bicycle trail I've only had a couple of close calls. The worst places are in where the path is next to heavily-used parks in the summertime. The parks are full of clueless parents and wandering little kids. Despite an alcohol ban drunks stagger across the path without looking in either direction. That said, I see the most eggregious accidents waiting to happen are those cyclist elitists who think they own the path since they are the "true cyclist." They ride in a group of 4 or so at speeds above the majority of others and take up more than their lane on the trail. They tend to bull their way through any congestion rather than slow their pace. They expect the oncoming cyclists to make room for their passage.
My favorite rant is those obviously elitist cyclists who won't be considerate when passing to announce they are overtaking.
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
Dave_Thompson wrote:
but the paths are not exclusively ours and we must take care when riding the them.
Yea, I'm curious about the kind of trail open to packs of riders at 25mph shared with families, walkers. Surely there must be a rule against walking on a trail open to this type of riding? Signs are posted I assume.
We have some mountain bike trails here that are one-way. Also shared by joggers, hikers. One 20 mile trail is run and maintained by a mountain bike club. Signs are posted. Racer Boi's when they are spotted get pretty called out on the trail and in our local forum. It's an awesome trail, but we know it's shared which requires different behavior -- including verbal warnings to other riders what's ahead or behind.
Don't get me wrong, I like going fast as much as anyone else.
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
Nev wrote:
We have some mountain bike trails here that are two-way. Also shared by...
Edit
Edited by Nev (12/13/05 05:56 PM)
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 Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Agreed on the road the intersection is the most dangerous place. Agreed during the work week the road is more dangerous.
In Pittsburgh we have a 2 1/2 mile trail nicknamed the Jail Trail. (It passes the jail.) To tell you the truth on a gorgeous sunny Sunday in the summer it is dangerous on it. Parents teach children no manners, parents have no manners, bladers skate 3 across, cyclists blow by with not a peep..you name the rude, inconsiderate, thoughtless, and sometimes unattentive behavior and you can see it. I only take it because the stretch of road it replaces is not a favorite of mine even on a Sunday. A friend was hit on it and since the trail cars seem to think you shouldn't be on it at all.
Not everybody acts that way but enough do however I view it as just a microcosm of the world at least in these parts. My wife is a teacher and can tell you some "chilling" tales of parents.
Dave I hate to tell you but you are wrong as well. I guess Spokane is a gentler and nicer world than Philadelphia. They have a trail there along the river and you take your life in your hands when the wannabees come flying down the trail 20 to 25 mph in a pace line all in their team kits. It is not a trail for racers by any means. If it hasn't happened already somebody is going to get killed and unfortunately it will probably be a little one. You could have fun though...when it is a single rider that purposely comes close to me without a word I love to either ride their butt in...pass in the proper fashion...or even point out that I didn't even have to get out of breath to catch and in turn pass them.
Trails are as different as the area in which they reside. Some are friendlier and others are not. I believe that is why the divergence of responses.
I've been on some as friendly as Dave's trails all the way to the will I get off alive trail.
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Dave sorry!!! I thought you had said that there were trails for just racer types and Nev merely refered to a possibility. The pharmacist said this new pain med was strong. I guess he didn't exagerate.
Man I wish it would get up to our average temperature instead of 10 to 20 degrees below it. We haven't had a break since Thanksgiving of one day at even our average. It is getting depressing! 
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Lon
sage
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I forgot...
I contacted a lady selling her brand new Fly. Here is why she was selling her Fly.
"I absolutely love to ride, but like I said before, I am tired of the recovery time.
The first serious accident I had when I ruptured a vertebrae, was on a bike trail in Orange County closed to the Univeristy of Irvine.. I was just riding along on the end of a really great ride, and a young boy ran out on the bike path from a blind spot area where I couldn't see him coming. I was only going about 13 to 14 miles per hour.
I was in pain for a year and half. I had two rather serious back surgeries. I now have rods down my spine from T9 to L3.
And even after all that, I decided to ride again last January. And then I ordered my new bike from Calfee in March. I had my next accident on May 7th---one week before my bike came in. I fractured my pelvic in two areas, and I missed 6 weeks of work---and I was on crutches for 8 weeks.
I have just decided (at least for now) that there are lots of other things I enjoy doing other than riding----although not with the same passion. So, I spend my free time swimming, going to yoga and going to the gym. At least with these activities, I am not likely to break any more bones."
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Kevan
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 70
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Insightdriver is very correct that I used conjecture and not fact in my previous post, but getting the facts is difficult to come by regarding pathway vs. road injury statistics. Still, I suspect there might be more bicycle-related injuries incurred on paths and sidewalks (if I can include them as well) than on roadways. I think it would be reasonable speculation that road-related accidents would certainly win out (sorry, poor choice of words) in the level of harm one risks using them, up to and including death. However, considering the numbers of people using paths instead of roads in an attempt to avoid those inherent hazards the road brings, they are simply trading off the level of injury, not the risk of injury. I have to believe there are many more times the number of accidents on our pathways and sidewalks than on roads. Certainly, death would be a rare occurrence on a path, but the frequency of accidents, most left unreported, such as scraped knees, elbows, bangs and bruises and the like happen every minute of every day across America. Certainly broken bones, busted teeth, cracked heads are also a risk on our friendly local pathway that then might get reported as hospital visits are required.
Consider too that most paths are narrow, the users untrained, or only moderately experienced and when you mix in two-way traffic, speed, volume and kids and pet animals who do not know which way is up? heck, you and I see families riding without helmets even! Nope, I think the path offers more risk to injury, just less severe. Umm? but that?s a very?VERY? big selling point.
Here some sites I visited:
http://www.bicyclinginfo.org/rt/index.htm
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2002/2002pcyfacts.pdf
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
http://www.transalt.org/blueprint/chapter17/chapter17b.html
http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/almanac-safety.html
http://www.bikexprt.com/research/petty/general.htm
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
Lon wrote:
Dave sorry!!! I thought you had said that there were trails for just racer types and Nev merely refered to a possibility. The pharmacist said this new pain med was strong. I guess he didn't exagerate.
Man I wish it would get up to our average temperature instead of 10 to 20 degrees below it. We haven't had a break since Thanksgiving of one day at even our average. It is getting depressing!
It's been below freezing for 2 weeks running now. No riding my new Saluki.
I didn't mean to hijack Saxon's thread and his admiration for his Calfee's handling. Maybe a new thread on bike path usage and etiquette is called for
--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Saxon
friend
Reged: 12/23/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Sacramento, CA
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Not a Hijack at all. I love having something to read!  The trail here, while officially multi-use is a serious bike trail with many clubs and teams ( I think they're teams; They're in full kits) running top speeds. People walking dogs and parents with children probably don't have any idea (but they learn fast)and don't appear to be aware of the danger of a pack of riders bearing down on them at 25 mph. Areas of the trail are marked for reduced speed. I'm not one of the many reckless riders I see buzz by a 2 year old on the trail at speed, but there are SO many of them. I've ridden the ARBT since '83 and have never had an accident on it (been hit by cars twice out on the road). I once walked Lance Armstrong's old Baseball coach off the trail after he misjudged a turn and crashed, breaking his collar bone. With the deer, turkeys, squirrels, Rattlesnakes (a friend crashed while riding side by side when a rattler slithered onto the road-The other rider freaked and ran into her), leashed dogs (on the dreaded expandable leashes) and children, there are plenty of opportunities for an accident. I've read that while bike accidents happen everywhere, the most serious and fatal ones are usually car vs. bike. Nothing juices a human body like a car!
Edited by Saxon (12/14/05 03:17 AM)
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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With multi-use paths, I have a problem with 'racer' bikes acting like they are the sole owners of the path, where everyone has to get out of *their* way. The bikers seldom observe even the basic courtesies. What frosts my flakes is that these so called racers give everyday bicyclists a bad name. Sort of like the Critical Mass boobs that supposedly are demonstrating for cyclists recognition and wind up giving the rest of us a bad name.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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jaleel_da_sheik
new member
Reged: 02/25/05
Posts: 20
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Another bike path that gets alot of traffic is the Burt-Gillman trail that runs from Redmond, WA to Seattle. A beautiful path that is well built and well maintained. The rainy season in Seattle is the only "safe" time to ride that trail due to the decrease in usage by others. Try riding it on a sunny weekend with the intent to get in a good ride and you will be disappointed.
What could be done to address all of these problems we bring up about the danger of bike paths? It is almost to the point where some sort of traffic school for path users should be required - the curriculum would include: headphones are extremely dangerous/illegal, proper reaction to verbal commands such as "on your left" are practiced, extendable dog leashes are dangerous/illegal, congested & dangerous areas should be better marked, etc. Perhaps bike path police are necessary.
It is great to see so many people and families enjoy the paths, but in many instances I feel safer riding in traffic than riding on the paths. That just seems wrong! Better understanding and self-policing by all path users is needed to reverse this predicament.
As for your feelings about the Critical Mass rides, Dave, I 100% agree with you on that. They are not the kind of protests that help bicyclists out in any way, shape or form.
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Kevan
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 70
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Interesting that Washington D.C.'s network of pathways seem to be better designed than most paths I've been on elsewhere. I guess government benefits don't fall too far from the tree. Here in Westchester Co. NY we have one major path that runs north-south, north-central to this region. I never broke out a ruler but my guess is our path is about 8' wide, I suppose it could be 10', but it doesn't appear to be. In D.C. they have painted, using an eco-green, a dashed stripe down the center of their paths to help its users maintain respect for what space is theirs and mine. Here, there's no such stripe. I often thought this would be a good project for a Boy Scout trying to earn his Eagle's badge; working with and helping the community by painting a stripe down the path in his area.
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spted
new member
Reged: 11/03/04
Posts: 11
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The American River Bike Trail truly is a beautiful ride.
About 11 years ago my daughter, then about 7, was riding with my son and I. She drifted into the oncoming lane just as a gentleman came over the crest of a small hill. They saw each other at the same time--he veered to his left try to miss her, she veered to her right to try to get back into her own lane and they met head on. Unbelievably neither was hurt (body or equipment) and the fellow involved was not upset (he had every right to be perturbed). Where was I? About 20 feet behind calling out to her to stay on her side of the center line.
My experience demonstrates the trail's dangers. You have to always be on the lookout for highly unpredictable behavior. . . sometimes innocent, sometimes foolish, sometimes reckless, sometimes sinister. I don't ride the trail on weekends unless absolutely necessary. And whether weekday or weekend I ride as conditions allow--just as in driving an auto--and just as defensive as when I'm on the streets. The trail certainly fits the "multi-use" label--runners, cyclists, walkers, skaters, dogs, strollers, etc. Some follow proper etiquette, some don't.
If a cyclist has an accident on this trail at 25 mph w/injuries or damage requiring the support of park personnel a park ranger is not going to have grounds for any sympathy for the cyclist since the posted limit is 15 mph (sometimes it feels SOOO slow) any more than a highway patrolman is going to sympathize with an accident caused by reckless driving.
http://www.sacparks.saccounty.net/our-parks/american-river-parkway/docs/Jedediah-Smith.pdf#search='jedediah%20smith%20american%20river%20bike%20trail%20path'
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
spted wrote:
I ride as conditions allow--just as in driving an auto--
That's it!
If I want to ride that mtb trail I mentioned at full speed I ride it in the dark, or first sun-up during the week. Otherwise, I know it's a two-way shared trail, and ride half-speed at best. Same goes on my road routes, the routes I choose, and so on: as conditions allow. Rode a new trail last weekend on my newly converted to single speed mtb. Wasn't fun bringing up the rear, but I needed to get to know it, for my own safety. That's the kind of me-first attitude that can be OK.
And so on...
"Stupid other people" [in the way] is a lousy excuse for stuff happening.
Then again...stuff happens.
You all be safe out there.
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NoBrakes
new member
Reged: 06/08/05
Posts: 19
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In sunny southern California, my favorite time to ride is about an hour or two before the sun comes up. Yes, night riding is great at that time. As long as you have a good lighting system, and some reflective material on you it's very safe. Very little to no traffic of any kind (cars, cyclist, adults, kids, dogs....) at those hours. No need for bike paths then because the road is pretty much yours, except for an occasional car or runner. I always go with my riding partner, which is safer and motivates me to get out at that time. It is a very calm and peaceful time to ride, and I enjoy seeing the sunrise over the mountains. Also, what I like is by the time we start seeing other riders we've already burned-off 40+ miles, and we can do a long ride and it doesn't take the whole day. I don't like cars, but I like bike paths even less for many of the reasons already discussed. If anyone is unsatisfied with their riding environment, riding at this time will significantly improve it.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
jaleel_da_sheik wrote:
Another bike path that gets alot of traffic is the Burt-Gillman trail that runs from Redmond, WA to Seattle. A beautiful path that is well built and well maintained. The rainy season in Seattle is the only "safe" time to ride that trail due to the decrease in usage by others. Try riding it on a sunny weekend with the intent to get in a good ride and you will be disappointed.
What could be done to address all of these problems we bring up about the danger of bike paths? It is almost to the point where some sort of traffic school for path users should be required - the curriculum would include: headphones are extremely dangerous/illegal, proper reaction to verbal commands such as "on your left" are practiced, extendable dog leashes are dangerous/illegal, congested & dangerous areas should be better marked, etc. Perhaps bike path police are necessary.
It is great to see so many people and families enjoy the paths, but in many instances I feel safer riding in traffic than riding on the paths. That just seems wrong! Better understanding and self-policing by all path users is needed to reverse this predicament.
As for your feelings about the Critical Mass rides, Dave, I 100% agree with you on that. They are not the kind of protests that help bicyclists out in any way, shape or form.
I believe the law, or rules, on the paths are that wheeled vehicles give way to pedestrians. The problem is when bike riders get together in a paceline, get a rhythm going, forget the rules and don't use common courtesies. When my wife and I ride our trails, we'll always fall single file when approaching pedestrians, call out "on your left" when passing and treat others as we would want to be treated.
Self-policing is a good policy, IF folks would self-police.
We have two really great paths over here, the Centennial Trail which runs from Spokane to Coeur d'Alene about 55 miles, and the Trail of the Coeur d'Alenes, which is a rails-to-trail that is 72 miles long. Both of them go through cities or towns, but also wander to to some exquisite middle-of-nowhere countryside. I've ridden the Burke Gillman once and not again. I don't like having my life on the line, it's a dangerous trail.
--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Allan
journeyman
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Bds,W I
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Kevan,
The path system is quite extensive all through the city of Calgary as you noticed, however i dont live there, and i only visit the city twice a year. Well you will have to excuse me as i do live over 6,000 miles away, so its not like i can just hop over there.
In my past 6 summer trips, i've checked out most of the path system from the NW end of town around the COP snowsport facility, down to as far south as the Glenmore reservoir area.
The paths are mostly asphalt and smooth, well marked and also have quite a lot of path highway overpasses as well to offer a change of scenery.
The path 'bike police' are very (rigid) with their use of radar guns and enforce the path speed limits totally,,,, well once they are lurking on the path that is.
I find the most used paths to be a chore to negotiate when they are busy naturally, with all the users, especially the persons that wander into your lane at the last moment.
For me personally i like the open road, and will think nothing of it to set off on the dual carriageway to the town of Cochrane a few miles away, which is at the bottom of a nice long hill,its a good climb out too.
I'm trying to find a few people this summer who might wish to take a roadtrip to the town of Banff about 60 miles away.
You basically have two roads to choose for this trip from Calgary, the Trans Canada Highway, or the old 1A road that eventually meets the main TCH near the town of Canmore in the beautiful Kananaskis country region.
From here its just a short trip,,,,after 60 plus miles of riding this IS basically a short jaunt to the ski resort town of Banff,,,, ah do i hear any takers for this 06 summer ride????
As you noted i also found that most bike stores in Calgary sell basically MTBs, and roads bikes are a rare breed indeed, but there is a small store in downtown called Campione selling top quality road bikes/frames and they can order whatever you want if its not in stock.
Craig and Blue are the guys in charge here, both very knowledgable on all manner of things related to bikes, its also the only store i actually saw any Campy items in stock.
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Its time to ride.
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