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dbrk
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Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
The 650B Revival new
#4879 - 01/10/05 04:42 AM (65.37.80.142)

Well, something of a revival is underway since Rivendell's Saluki will soon hit the road (many of the first 100 bikes are at paint) and others, including the new Cycles Tournesol, the Brothers Hampsten's venture into traditional lugged steel will include 650B models. Check out cyclestournesol.com for some initial look at the concept. Tournesol will be more of the constructeur style, likely that most bikes will come whole and built to order, while Rivendell maintains the versatility and multiple build-style that has been their mark from the beginning. Still, I can't describe just how pleased I am that we will see more 650B in America. I've been riding this wheel size now for a long time---on several different bikes including a Herse, Singer, and Mariposa---and it's the perfect fat tire road bike roughstuffer in-betweener. Some will say that its 584mm diameter is not enough of a difference from 559mm (mtn bike size) but the experience is entirely different and far better suited to the road. Anyway, I'm sure that my two examples of Saluki will be among the first batch---one centerpuller, the other cantilever---one to be built oldschool, the other modern, both with Berthoud stainless fenders, and I could not be more excited...but for the news that a long, long awaited Nagasawa is on the boat headed here in less than six weeks. So traditional lugged steel has, well, never been better, as ironic as that might be.

Well, more soon, and hearty thanks to Kahuna for this new spot on the BFC. It was gracious of him to add it for those of us for whom lugged steel bikes provide such joy.

dbrk


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KahunaAdministrator
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Reged: 12/11/03
Posts: 162
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Re: The 650B Revival new [Re: dbrk]
#4880 - 01/10/05 11:06 AM (206.126.9.159)

You're welcome dbrk. I tried to reply to your email but it bounced.

-K


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Insightdriver
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Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
Re: The 650B Revival new [Re: dbrk]
#5411 - 03/15/05 05:12 PM (192.55.52.3)

I went to the tournesol site, but the page says it's under construction.

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andreu
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Reged: 05/09/04
Posts: 21
Loc: Spain
Re: The 650B Revival new [Re: Insightdriver]
#5419 - 03/16/05 08:57 PM (212.7.40.15)

Why the revival....are cyclists becoming more "sophisticated" and need other riding experiences?
Thanks,
A


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dbrk
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Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Re: The 650B Revival new [Re: andreu]
#5427 - 03/17/05 12:25 PM (65.37.80.142)

Quote:

andreu wrote:
Why the revival....are cyclists becoming more "sophisticated" and need other riding experiences?
Thanks,
A




When we see non-racers with little interest in "training rides" or "fast club rides" on modified race bikes---usually modified by spacers, riser stems, and mild tweaks in geometry---but still with short(ish) chainstays, skinny tires (which are _not_ faster because they are skinny), and short wheelbases, what we see are bikes ill-suited or, at least, less than optimal. People know and like what they get used to. They are sold what the industry and most bike shops know and that's modified (sometimes not much!) race bikes. It's not materials that matter here nearly as much as design and parts (especially tires). The 650B is not a bike for the old, fat, and dorky. It's a bike for long days, wandering country rides, and the sort of attitude that comes with "going for a ride" rather than "having goals for the season." I have a goal for this season, I tell you: it's to ride my bike a lot and to go out for long, long days with lunch in a saddlebag. 650B was originally designed (I mean the style of bike, not the wheelsize as such) for cyclo-touring. In America, for the most part, we think of touring as schlepping panniers with enough gear to make it to Tierra del Fuego but the French, for whom this sort of bike served another aim, rode them on day rides, sub-24hr overnights, and country sight-seeing rides. When you have your head buried nine inches below the saddle with a clear view of the fork crown (uhhh...most bikes don't even have fork crowns worth staring at anymore...), you aren't seeing the countryside.

I think people who like their training rides and fast clubbing are just swell. I think also that many are not interested in that and don't know about other ways to design, fit, and ride bicycles. The bicycle industry has, for the most part, done little or nothing to educate people about these other ways of riding, insisting on race bikes and their particular system of fit as the only proper way of doing things. This is because they don't understand other bikes or don't want to (for a host of reasons). That Rivendell, the Hampsten brothers, Mariposa (Mike Barry, Toronto), and handful of others (Kogswell! Gaansari!!) have notions of riding that are not racing and will build "other" sorts of bikes is a testimony to modest revival. I am not hopeful the Big Guys are listening carefully but the demographic of cycling continues to change and "riding like Lance" has only a few more years in it. Soon we will see Andy Pink Jersey riding a 650B or a longer wheelbase unmodified non-race bike (perhaps 700c, the wheelsize is not the issue) and perhaps that will put the creds in the minds of WalterMitty racerman.

I'm not sugggesting exaggerated bar heights but bar heights are too low on most modified racers (or the bikes are too ugly getting their bars closer to just a few centimeters below the saddle) nor that everyone give up their spandex (though anyone who has worn the "new" "revival" wools will soon give up stinky plastic...), but there _are_ other ways to ride a bike than just trying to look and go like a EuroRacer or American crit rider. If you like to ride like that, swell. But even most bike geek middle-agers don't really know (or even understand) the history of 650B or other sorts of riding styles.

End Rant.

dbrk


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dbrk
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Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
Re: The 650B Revival new [Re: dbrk]
#5451 - 03/19/05 12:36 PM (65.37.80.142)

Here I go again, seemingly replying to my own posts but thanks to andreu and others who evince interest.

I live in the north country, much closer to Toronto than any major American city, and cycling in winter in the Finger Lakes of western New York poses issues that are not like other places that are cold and snowy. Unlike, say, Boulder where there is more sun and less wind, we often have too little of one and plenty of the other in these months and call me weak but it takes a very hardy soul to make everyday the Ida'bike. (I have such a pal who lives in a place even more challenging than Bristol, New York and he qualifies as my hero when he's not saving children's lives as a doctor. No names; hopefully he is not reading this...too modest). This wind up to my own pitch is that yesterday in a very mild 35degrees (little wind, some sun), I got out for a few sincere hours on the new Rivendell Saluki, the 650B wheeler.

I have other 650B bikes (and have had them for years: Herse, SInger, Mariposa) and Rivendell's is the first production model since WhoKnowsWhen,Rene? This particular one is shod with a selection of beautiful old bits including the redoubtable Suntour PowerRatchet (as they original instructions put it, "They go tick-tack, tick-tack...") bar end shifters and an XC Pro that is so old that it's silver and silver (without the black plates of the last generation, gosh, those were great derailleurs...). The key are the tires, in this case, Mitsuboshi 650Bx37 Trimlines that max out at 45psi (yup, 45...). You would think that such a low tire pressure would make for a slaggardly ride, just too soft and "slow," But this is not so, decidedly not. Our dirt roads and pavement here are pretty clean but given that it's BeforeSpring, they are currently a great testing ground for slippery, challenging, potholed, glass-strewn, and "someone lost their mitten." (Roadkill is the preferred hazard of summer, btw.)

This bike is about perfect and it was more than my enthusiasm after hibernation. It is so cushy that it's nearly embarrasing. I mean, you think you can't be riding with this sort of road bike feel on wheels that are this comfortable. All this talk nowadays about stiff-this and stiffer-that. Okay, I get it but I just don't get it. These tires didn't feel like they slowed me down _one bit_ but they certainly felt like the road no longer had any harshness left it in. Remarkable. Downright perfect. I am a convert to my own conversion, again; deja vu all over again, as the Yogi put it.

Of course these are big, fat tires and one could say that any steel bike with Berthoud stainless steel fenders and "heavy" wheels is more like a truck or a geriatic-mobile (and maybe I am just old) but I had more fun and a more pleasant ride you could not have had. That's sorta' what it's about, no? To each his (or her) own, of course. But I can say with a straight face that 650B is not just a comfort-bike or a rough-road bike or a trails and roads bike, it is an everyday bike for everything but racing. I'm bringing my non-fender-shod 650B to the crits this spring and will ride the opening "training" laps just to scare the locals.

dbrk


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Dave_Thompson
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Reged: 12/19/03
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Re: The 650B Revival new [Re: dbrk]
#5452 - 03/19/05 03:50 PM (24.22.233.76)

Douglas, you are having entirely too much fun!

P.S. The Peg is great.

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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andreu
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Reged: 05/09/04
Posts: 21
Loc: Spain
Re: The 650B Revival new [Re: Dave_Thompson]
#5618 - 04/02/05 07:11 PM (212.7.41.132)

The thought of spending the whole day looking at beautiful French countryside, or Spanish for that matter, seems like a bloody good reason to buy a 650 to me.
Thanks for the replies.
A


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Insightdriver
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Reged: 03/07/04
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Re: The 650B Revival new [Re: dbrk]
#6109 - 06/07/05 03:09 PM (67.182.161.77)

dbrk you have me thinking now. I appreciate someone who posts enough information to make a concept understandable. I understand that wheel size, per se, makes insignificant difference in rolling resistance. I have the information in my bicycling science book to confirm that. For someone to give the ride quality that comes from having the 650 wheels is valuable information that you don't get from just looking at the science of it.

I know, for the kind of riding I do here in Sacramento that my road bike is set up the way I like it and I can put long miles on it. I ride on class 1 bike paths almost exclusively. The few times I ride city streets it reminds me that the trail is a much smoother ride. That said, I know that my bike would bog down if I were to hit soft dirt with those skinny tires. If I get into riding on unpaved stuff then I realize I have many more options no than I used to years ago.


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Dave_Thompson
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The 650B Revival..tire/tube sources? new [Re: Insightdriver]
#6992 - 11/17/05 02:22 AM (67.185.76.57)

Now that I have my Saluki, I'm in search of different tires for different conditions. The bike currently has the marshmallow Mitsuboshi Trimlines (38). I've heard good things about the Michelin Megamium, but can't find any other than at Rivendell. Does anyone have other sources for this and other 650B tires and tubes?

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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Riccardo
new member


Reged: 12/17/05
Posts: 14
Re: The 650B Revival..tire/tube sources? new [Re: Dave_Thompson]
#7174 - 12/17/05 02:08 AM (67.167.59.179)

650b can be fun.

My perspective is that tire diameter is a function of design necessities and aesthetics.

Wider profile tires are available in 700c, 650b, and 26". For good wide road tires, I think the best selection may be had in 700c - for better or worse. Good compliant tires come in a variety of widths (and consequently tire pressures) without adversely affecting speed. Most roads aren't smooth, and so more compliance can actually enhance speed. Meanwhile, any aero impacts related to tires are not well studied or understood.

In sum, one can put good wider tires on any "adult" sized bike and get benefits like smoother ride and more cornering traction. All three wheel sizes work fine.

There is a point where wheels look too small for a frame. If you're on 69cm frame, even 700c will look small. But, as frame sizes get smaller, smaller wheels look better proportioned. Is this a learned aesthetic? Maybe, but it works for me.

On the other hand, the distance rider generally has some specific needs that go beyond comfort, especially to maximize speed. One is that the bike handles easily and isn't nervous - this is especially important as a rider tires. Another is that the bike handles all situations well - which implies no toe-clip overlap, fenders for wet situations, and the ability to handle a variety of surfaces (among other things).

Smaller tire sizes help to avoid toe-clip overlap, especially as frame sizes decrease. This issue is exacerbated when fenders are used. As the profile of a tire increases (say from 23mm to 37mm), this also exacerbates the overlap problem. Both of these are good reasons for the builder to consider 650b or 26" tires.

Along with these issues, the builder has to consider handling with the wider tire. Wider tires often add to stability and overall traction, but shouldn't be allowed to interfer with the ability to steer around obstacles or provide feedback to the rider. A good builder will have the experience and training to make necessary adjustments.

In the end, the ride that Dave describes is cool. Under good conditions (ie rested, good weather) the bike will keep up with everyone else, but under bad conditions (rough road, bad weather, fatigue) the bike will continue to be fun to ride and will help the rider succeed.

By the way, some French bikes in the 50's had these ride attributes with wide tires, fenders, and racks with all up weights below (in a few instances well below) the 20 pound mark.

If 650b tires help us get more bikes like this on the road, then they benefit all riders.


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Insightdriver
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Reged: 03/07/04
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Re: The 650B Revival..tire/tube sources? [Re: Riccardo]
#7180 - 12/18/05 04:15 AM (67.166.150.131)

Interesting that you mention, for long distance riders no toe-clip overlap. For my Custom Calfee Tetra Pro that I will receive in a week or so, I ordered it with that kind of geometry and with fenders as I want it as a commuting bike. It is nice to know that my aesthetic and desires are validated. My first Calfee was custom-sized for me and had toe overlap which only was a factor a couple of times when first starting out and mis-balancing just as my toe hit the tire. In riding it was not an issue at all. That said, as it came time to decide what I would want differently on my second custom Calfee I decided that I would accept a hand-wrapped head tube to give the angle necessary that would allow for no overlap with fenders yet still have the short reach I needed to the bars.

Thanks for giving a post with your thoughts. I'm sure others appreciate it without thinking to say it in words.


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BlueJays
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Reged: 09/21/07
Posts: 69
Loc: United States
Diggin' the new approach to dayriding new [Re: dbrk]
#9236 - 10/03/07 12:35 PM (70.111.166.169)

The notion of a bike that can be ridden from dawn-to-dusk and back home again with adequate speed, stability, capable of carting some stuff, and simultaneously looking sharp is appealing. My inclination would be to seek that unique geometry while still retaining the 700c wheels for ease of tire replacement. This daybike would be in addition to traditional racebikes.

Something along these lines is especially attractive:



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Dave_Thompson
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Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Re: Diggin' the new approach to dayriding new [Re: BlueJays]
#9252 - 10/03/07 08:50 PM (67.185.138.143)

My 650B Saluki was excellent on all roads in all conditions. Very sure footed especially in poor weather on bad roads.


By davetspokane, shot with FinePix S602 ZOOM at 2007-10-03

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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BlueJays
journeyman


Reged: 09/21/07
Posts: 69
Loc: United States
Lengthened chain stays new [Re: Dave_Thompson]
#9254 - 10/03/07 09:14 PM (70.111.166.169)

It looks like your Saluki or the Tournesol pictured above it would provide all-day comfort given the substantially longer chain stays compared to what is normally seen. I have an affection for racebikes, but I would love to have something a bit more casual for when I know it will be hours, and hours, and hours in the saddle.

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