Lon
sage
   
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I used to equate my "normal" back pain with "real" back pain from disc and vertebrae injuries. I worked with someone with "real" back pain and I would give him advice based on my experiences with "normal" back pain. I hope all this makes sense. My "normal" back pain could be controlled with ab work, chriropractor, stretching and so forth and I encouraged my colleague. He said to me that I had no idea what his pain was like and that he would do more but the pain prevented it.
WELL here I am now with compression fractures of lumbar 1, 3 and 5. Plus they think part of my excruciating pain ("real" back pain) is from the joints that connect 4 and 5. I am set for a surgical procedure (outpatient) where a steroid is injected into the joint in hopes it alleviates the pain. There are no promises but the doctor is highly recommended. Plus he rides and was perfectly happy when I parked my Calfee in his waiting room.
In short...the back pain many of us have hurts like hell and we think that is as bad as it gets. TRUST ME there is a WHOLE other level of pain when it is a serious back injury. I wish I didn't know but I do now.
Ironically I ended up being deposed by the guy with the back pain (who I hadn't seen or talked to in several years) the day before seeing the back pain doctor and his lawyer was the doctor's brother! All through the day I kept telling the guy I had worked with that GOD was getting his revenge on me since I used to joke with Rich about his back, the pain and the way he walked and complained. I now am a clone of his walk.
WELL if you don't laugh...and I laugh...
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Hey Lon,
Good luck to you, man. I appreciate what you are going through. I've not had excruciating pain in quite a while. What I do deal with is an undercurrent of pain that is constant. That said, I can easily deal with it because I tune it out. I've been lucky most of my life but time is catching up to me now and I'm feeling the effects of not taking care of my body over the years.
On a great note, I just got my email from my LBS with the serial number of my new bike that just went into production. This is going to be my Christmas present for sure now.
Cheers,
Ed
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Lon
sage
   
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Congratulations on your impending "birth."
The pain you describe is what I call normal back pain. It sure hurts too but it is a different hurt. It is like comparing a Huffy and a Calfee. They are both bicycles... I used to do the same thing with the back pain I had.
Good luck and safe riding.
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skuke
captain
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
Lon wrote: The pain you describe is what I call normal back pain. It sure hurts too but it is a different hurt. It is like comparing a Huffy and a Calfee. They are both bicycles... I used to do the same thing with the back pain I had.
One of the very first things I learned in nursing school is that everyone's pain is unique. Everybody has a different threshold and tolerance. You can only compare the two types of back pain you had with each other. There is no way you can compare it to what anybody else is experiencing.
...sometimes I just wanna tell my patients to "suck it up and quit whining!" "I've had hang nails that have hurt worse!" But I don't because I don't TRULY know what they are experiencing. I can only take their word that it is ok, tolerable, untolerable etc.
I think we, as a group of avid cyclist, tend to be on the masochistic side. We enjoy the pain involved with riding hard.
-------------------- Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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Pintsized
journeyman
Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
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In my experience the pain of riding hard isn't like the pain of an injured back. A hurt back seems to me far worse than a quad burning from a hard sprint, say. It's an ache that makes you feel like you are just going to cave in. Horrible.
There's more. The pain of riding hard is...well, J. S. Mill the philosopher referrd to pains that produced pleasures later. The pain of riding hard seems to be that kind: even when its bad, you can sort of try to put up with because something might come of it later. Whereas, when your back hurts because it's injured, it just (which J. S. Mill did not say) f---ing hurts. Allowing the pain to continue doesn't help some pleasure happen later.
I'm not trying to make light of anyone's pain issues and I hope it doesn't look like I am. Just being conversational.
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skuke
captain
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 323
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Quote:
Pintsized wrote:
In my experience the pain of riding hard isn't like the pain of an injured back. A hurt back seems to me far worse than a quad burning from a hard sprint, say. It's an ache that makes you feel like you are just going to cave in. Horrible.
There's more. The pain of riding hard is...well, J. S. Mill the philosopher referrd to pains that produced pleasures later. The pain of riding hard seems to be that kind: even when its bad, you can sort of try to put up with because something might come of it later. Whereas, when your back hurts because it's injured, it just (which J. S. Mill did not say) f---ing hurts. Allowing the pain to continue doesn't help some pleasure happen later.
I'm not trying to make light of anyone's pain issues and I hope it doesn't look like I am. Just being conversational.
My bad. I should not have put my last sentence in my response. I should have started a new thread (enough hijacking in this thread already) or at least a seperate reply. I included it only because it was related to pain and cycling or prohibiting one from cycling. Based on your summarizing of Mills, I take it you agree with my masochistic statement. We, avid cyclist, enjoy the hard ride pain because we look forward to winning the sprint, having a good personal time on a climb, taking care of our bodies (future better health), etc.
In response to your first comments, I 100% agree. The pain from riding hard is nothing compared to an injury pain. I too have back pains, but its up around T3-T5. When those flare up and spasm, I can hardly breathe. I must take short, shallow breaths. As I recover (few/many days/weeks), I can ride my bike with little problems other than I can't ride hard because I can't inhale deeply. But as far as riding position, I have no problems. I can even get low on the drops and have no additional pain. It's just breathing, which I sorta like to do, is difficult.
-------------------- Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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Lon
sage
   
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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It appears we are all in agreement.
There is: "real" pain...the injury that Pint described well by saying it can cause you to cave in. It did in my case...I bent a little to my right to get something and the pain was such I literally fell over.
"overuse" pain...what we feel and put up with for our pleasures and work. If you are lucky pleasure and work can be combined. 
"the burn"...that pain that some thrive on as they ride, lift, run or whatever...some love it more than others...Lance seems to live for it.
Me...wimp...hate the first...put up with the second...try to avoid the third which is why I never grow past a point...but that is my choice.
Quick story...I asked an excellent cyclist the secret to climbing. His reply was, "Well Lon when it starts to burn you have to love it." My response was, "Shannon I guess I'll never be a climber, when it starts to burn I downshift."
Me...I'll handle pain number 3 for the endeavors I love the most...hitting 35 or 40 or a "peddling" stetch to blow off cars is no problem...killing myself to go 1 more mph up a Pittsburgh hill...who cares the top isn't going anywhere.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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The King HS is overkill. Get a Campy Record and save 50 bucks. You're not in Seattle, and you're not riding off road. I've got a year on one and it is flawless. Its on the Luna Track...glad to see you are moving along and impressed with your attention to detail.
By and large, Fizik saddles get really high marks. I have Ariones on my primary bikes. I like the long nose for moving forward and it is narrow enough that my big legs don't hit it, which drives me nuts on other saddles.
But, becuase people's build differs, their preferences differ on saddles. It is personal. It isn't fair to say "Fizik saddles suck." It is more like "I prefer a Selle Italia Flite."
Edited by flythebike (11/16/05 07:43 PM)
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Thanks for the feedback. I am going to stay with the Chris King headset since in the big scheme of things, it's one of the minor details where I could save a few dollars. Also, good thing you posted to get this thread a bit more on-track again.
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cccyclist
journeyman
Reged: 09/27/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Central California
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I think that a good headset can change the entire feel of a bike. You will never have to worry about that part for the life of the frame. All of my bikes have King headsets.
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flythebike
captain
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 272
Loc: N. Virginia, USA
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No question Chris King makes great headsets. I have two of them. But unless you have unlimited funds, you have to make choices about that kind of thing, ultimately. You save 50 bucks here and there and you can direct the funds to something that you can really tell the difference on. I can't tell the difference between my King HS and my Record HS. The D-fly has a King, the Luna a Record. And btw, the first thing I noticed this am which switching to the D-fly was the BB/Crank feel. The D-fly with Campy Carbon cranks was much improved over the Luna, part of that I think is the pedals...the Coombes with Specialized carbon pro shoes over Time ATACs and Specialized MTB Pro shoes. Running nice alloy T/A track cranks. Anyway, you can tell where the money went between those two bikes, although the Luna is just so nice, you can tell that the Fly is better.
Enjoy your new bike, Insight!
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I got news that my newly-manufactured bike went through final sanding and should go to painting by Monday or Tuesday. Estimate given to me by my LBS indicates I should receive my bike by Christmas. I will be sure to post pics of her when I get it.
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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My current information now is the bike went to the painter on Wednesday. It looks good that I'll get my bike sometime before the end of the year now. Last night I got to look at the bits and pieces I'm getting. I got a Tubus Luna rear rack, stainless steel, flat black. On top will sit a Jandd rear rack pack II. In it I'll keep my Kryptonite New York lock and my lunch. I've Jitensha Honjo fenders and Niterider Rage Hid + Led lightkit.
The headtube on my bike is hand-wrapped because it exceeded the angle of the mold that the head tube is normally molded in. I also found out that, due to a mis-communication between LBS, myself and Calfee I've also got mounting for a rear disc brake. I don't know if I'll put a disc brake on my bike in the future but I will have the option if I want it. I'm getting the transparent Cabernet Red paint on the frame.
I'll be fully set to be a full-time bike-commuter with my new ride. The fenders are necessary in the winter here due to frequent rain. Good lighting is also necessary on a commuter bike since I'll be riding before dawn and after dusk all through the rest of the winter.
I'm very curious how much different this bike will feel compared to my previous one. I'm starting to feel the excitement of anticipation since I will be riding again very soon.
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Lon
sage
   
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I think it is fortunate to have the disc option for the type of bike you are building. It is much safer and more effective.
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Thanks for saying so, Lon. If I had said the word, Craig would have taken it off. I'm glad to have the option on it, though. I'm ready to get back into riding.
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Lon
sage
   
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I was setting up my mountain bike for the really crappy weather and wishing I had a disc brake option. It didn't matter much before because I rode easy trails. However riding it on roads in the snow means I would like to stop when needed. It is ironic this thread started the same day or so.
Have fun!
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Folks, I have news that my frame as arrived at the bike shop. Tomorrow I'm taking off work to hang out and watch her get built up. Too bad it's raining a lot here, the bike trail is flooded in places so I don't have a safe route to ride to work yet.
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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My bike wasn't quite finished today, the last day of 2005. I will, however,be bringing my baby home with me in the new year of 2006. Many pics to follow.
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Pintsized
journeyman
Reged: 02/27/05
Posts: 90
Loc: Corvallis OR
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Is it home yet??? I can't stand the suspemse. And it isn't even my bike
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Yes,it's home now! It will be going back to the factory, though. There was a minor mistake in fabrication which Craig will gladly fix. I will be riding it this weekend at any rate to get a feel for the ride quality. I have some pics but will wait until I get the bike completed after it comes back from the factory before I take good ones. I do want the fenders on it for the pics. I don't have the fenders yet because the hardware was not shipped with the fenders.
When you do get to see my bike you will realize that I have committed heresy. I got a full-custom bike set up as a commuter bike! I did get a slightly different mix of components as well. Giant came out with a nice carbon bar and stem. I've got them on my bike now. I wanted narrower bars and Giant has them in a narrower size.
It was too dark for me to get out on a ride when I got home from work tonight. There is also flooding on the American River bike trail and I don't feel like riding on city streets with my new bike, yet.
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Hello folks. I was drinking my morning coffee and thinking about biking since there is a Bike Commute Month celebration I'm going to for the free meal and fun. With over 800 miles on my bike now I can give a definitive impression of it's ride characteristics, the choices that were made, and the ramifications of living with them.
I would start out by saying that a bicycle is a machine and it's a machine built to a purpose. Just like you can get an all-purpose machine, when you get one specialized for the job, it's been optimized to work better.
Living with the rack is one thing I'll comment on. I have a JANDD rack trunk on it. They do not fit together pefectly. The Jannd trunk would sit better on a wide platform of a regular rack. The Tubus rack I have is a small minimalist kind of rack. I also have some extra lash-ups I made with some nylon staps I had laying around. They are not really noticeable unless you have an eye for details. For an example of how handy the rac trunk is, on my last ride I carried in it my repair kit, spare tube, three apples, two bananas, two maps, my cell phone and a hand towel. No matter how fast I ride, turn and how hard I hit bumps the rack sits there stable and the only sounds are from the things inside that are being thrown around.
I had an issue with my FSA Gossamer crankset. The left hand fixing bolt came loose and fell off while I was riding. I did not notice it. A few miles later my left foot fell down, and at first I thought I had dropped my chain. The left crank arm had fallen off the splines. I got it back on and tightened it as much as I could and rode gingerly to my bike shop. My bike shop replaced the crank arm with a new one. I was told that more than one person has had that arm come loose on them. He told me if I had any problems any more that he would swap out my crank with a Shimano one for free.
Yesterday, during a rest I decided to check the tightness of the fixing bolt since I was told by my bike shop to keep an eye on it. I tweaked it maybe a sixteenth of a turn. The clamp bolts for the crank arm turned maybe an eight at most. I had heard some creaks only when I was standing and pushing hard on the pedals. Apparently I nailed the creek because I had no more after I had tightened the crank arm. I didn't use a torque wrench, and I didn't use a gorilla twist on the bolts. I'll have to keep an eye on this brank of crank arm.
Once the rainy season was over I removed my fenders. The execution of the fenders was not as elegant as I've seen on other bikes. I'll have to rethink that this next winter rainy season.
I like silence so I am happy that there are no creaks, rattles or whistles on my bike. At speed, when riding next to a wall I can hear the whirring of the chain running. I can hear a whisper sound coming from the wheels. I can hear the rythmic sound of the rotation of the cranks and my legs going past the seat tube and down tube.
No toe overlap. I have a slack geometry to push the front wheel out far enough so I would not have toe overlap with fenders mounted. The one place where it was an issue for me, making a hairpin turn to go up a levee gravel path. I find I still habitually am careful not to turn my front wheel to hard over. Stupid of me, really, since it no longer matters. As far as riding is concerned I can take turns faster than I used to more from practise and confidence than a difference in geometry. I can track a narrow line more easily on this bike compared to my last one. That is definately due to the more stable geometry.
My saddle is a Brooks B-17. I have found my saddle. Knowing a bit about leather I have it oiled up regularly with neatsfoot oil. That and the combination of shammy cream that has ended up on it has turned it from the tan of new leather to a shiny brown of used leather quite rapidly. Every time I get on that seat I am grateful for how it feels. It just fits my but right and the flexibilty of it works well for me. Saddles are personal so all I will say further is that I finally found the saddle that saves my butt from pain.
My gearing is the FSA compact 50/34 with the Shimano 12-27 cassette. My regular ride now runs about 47 miles in length, out and back. For the last ten miles of out it's all uphiill, not a steep grade, but steady, unrelenting. I find the 34/27 is low enough for the steepest grade that I can ride, which requires standing on the pedals. There is one steep access to the bike lane on a bridge over the river where I have to stand to pedal, otherwise I would have to walk my bike. I don't ride hills so much but am of the opinion that my bike would be adequate in rolling hills as well.
I have dropped my chain, flipping to the 34 while going up a hill a few times. Unfortunately front shifting on a bike with a 14 tooth ring difference still can be problematical. I have to be more careful to let it fall before I force my pedal down. I was in too much of a hurry. Normally, when I anticipate it would be better to be in the 34 ring, I have no issues with shifting.
Crank Brothers Candy pedals. I like them. Easy to clip in, very easy to twist out. Nothing more to say, they just work well.
Just to let you all know where my fitness level is at the moment, my ride yesterday was 47.5 miles at an average of 15.7 mph. I was not pushing hard, I was just riding my ride, feeling strong.
These were just some of the impressions I've gained from living with my bike.
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Lon
sage
   
Reged: 12/20/03
Posts: 595
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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You did not say what front d you are running. I switched to the FSA compact and (knock on wood) I haven't dropped a chain yet. On my Campy bike I use their front d for a compact with similar results. I'd try it if I were you. If you have it try a chain watcher. It is a cheap, easy and light solution that works.
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I have the FSA front derailleur on my bike. Except for those times when rushed into the 34 while pedaling fast, it's never dropped off the ring on me. I rode a 58 mile ride today and because much of it was an uphill grade for miles I was switching from my 50 to 34 pretty regularly without a hitch. Ironically after taking a break at my turn-around point I was pumping up a steep hill and dropped into the 34 and it hopped off on me.
I re-read my main post and noticed I missed a few letters here and there. I guess I had not had enough coffee in me when I was typing. I also noted my math is a bit off. There is a 16 tooth difference between a 50 and 34 chainring.
Today's ride included a stop at the Bike Commute Month party. I had a free spaghetti dinner there. I didn't see anybody I knew so I went on my ride after hanging around a bit.
Edited by Insightdriver (06/10/06 05:38 AM)
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Montaque
new member
Reged: 09/14/04
Posts: 24
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QUOTE:
I have dropped my chain, flipping to the 34 while going up a hill a few times. Unfortunately front shifting on a bike with a 14 tooth ring differetill can be problematical. I have to be more careful to let it fall before I force my pedal down. I was in too much of a hurry. Normally, when I anticipate it would be better to be in the 34 ring, I have no issues with shifting.
CONSIDER:
Align your drive train - NO reason for the chain to drop, either side, if your entire drive train is PROPERLY aligned and derailleurs properly adjusted.
On my Ultegra equip IBIS and Campy equip Tetra Pro, I can drop 30 teeth on the triple straight down, no pause at the middle, from the 52 to the 22 on both bikes.
It is actually an extraordinarily unproblematic chore.
From what you have stated in your post, it would seem your wrench needs training and an interest in quality control.
QUOTE:
My saddle is a Brooks B-17. I have found my saddle. Knowing a bit about leather I have it oiled up regularly with neatsfoot oil. That and the combination of shammy cream that has ended up on it has turned it from the tan of new leather to a shiny brown of used leather quite rapidly. Every time I get on that seat I am grateful for how it feels. It just fits my but right and the flexibilty of it works well for me. Saddles are personal so all I will say further is that I finally found the saddle that saves my butt from pain.
CONSIDER:
The comfort from BROOKS leather is not from the oil soaked hammock effect you have created in a very short time by destroying the leather.
Rather, the comfort is from the SUPPORT from the minimally compliant leather and the contouring of the BROOKS leather to the individual. Of course, this is in addition to a properly adjusted saddle and the rider on a properly fitted bike and balanced on the saddle.
BROOKS saddles are made from fine leather and should be treated like fine leather not like engineering boots (http://www.stompersboots.com/gtwy_engineer-3.php).
BROOKS saddles are vegetable tanned - Google it and you will find out why Brooks recommends using only PROOFIDE for maintenance of Brooks saddles:
QUOTE FROM BROOKS WEBSITE:
Leather breathes and moulds to your shape in use. The longitudinal fibres stretch during riding, that's why for optimum comfort a Brooks saddles should be carefully tensioned using the spanner designed especially for this purpose. Remember, little and 'not very often' are the key to successful tensioning. Never ride or tension a saddle when wet as this will over stretch the leather and ruin the saddle.
Leather, as a natural material, will provide the advantages of lasting comfort, coolness in hot weather, style and durability. If you follow these simple instructions your saddle will adapt itself to you and retain its support and comfort. A new saddle should be polished with a soft cloth. Do not ride the saddles immediately, wearing light coloured clothing, as this could lead to staining.
Keep the leather supple with an occasional application of "Brooks Proofide", which is specially formulated from natural ingredients to condition, preserve and shower proof your saddle. Brooks Proofide is the only substance that should be used to care for your saddle. Apply Proofide lightly using a soft cloth to the finished side of the leather. Allow the Proofide to permeate until dry and then polish off. This should be done during the initial period of use, and every 3 - 6 months thereafter. (On bicycles not fitted with mudguards, an initial application to the underside of the saddle will be beneficial, this need not be polished off).
You should protect your Brooks leather saddle from moisture. If a wet saddle is ridden the colour may stain your clothing. Allow wet saddles to dry naturally never tension or Proofide a wet saddle.
Correct leather tension will ensure your saddle retains its shape and comfort. To tension turn the nose bolt nut 90 degrees at a time, check tension. Do not over-tension. A special Brooks spanner is available for this purpose.
_END_
In case you may have an interest in what I have stated regarding shifting and BROOKS saddles, my bikes reside in Citrus Heights.
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Quote:
Montaque wrote:
QUOTE: My saddle is a Brooks B-17. I have found my saddle. Knowing a bit about leather I have it oiled up regularly with neatsfoot oil. That and the combination of shammy cream that has ended up on it has turned it from the tan of new leather to a shiny brown of used leather quite rapidly. Every time I get on that seat I am grateful for how it feels. It just fits my but right and the flexibilty of it works well for me. Saddles are personal so all I will say further is that I finally found the saddle that saves my butt from pain.
CONSIDER:
The comfort from BROOKS leather is not from the oil soaked hammock effect you have created in a very short time by destroying the leather.
BROOKS saddles are made from fine leather and should be treated like fine leather not like engineering boots (http://www.stompersboots.com/gtwy_engineer-3.php).
BROOKS saddles are vegetable tanned - Google it and you will find out why Brooks recommends using only PROOFIDE for maintenance of Brooks saddles:
Citrus Heights.
I won't argue the shifting. There are too many varibles invovled.
I will, however, state that I am not destroying my leather using neatsfoot oil on it. Like any manufacturer, they want you to use their stuff to take care of their product. It's normally a mixture of commodity ingredients sold in a small container for a high price.
You state information in a way that implies there is only one proper way to treat a leather saddle. I suggest you don't know much about the history of use of leather. For example almost all leather is vegatable tanned nowadays for one important reason: it's an environementally friendly way of tanning leather. If I were to spend big money on a premium western saddle I would want cromium-tanned leather because it produces a tougher, longer-lasting leather.
For an excellent introduction into leather go to this link: http://amol.org.au/recollections/2/2/03.htm
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
   
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
Insightdriver wrote:<snip>...I will, however, state that I am not destroying my leather using neatsfoot oil on it. Like any manufacturer, they want you to use their stuff to take care of their product. It's normally a mixture of commodity ingredients sold in a small container for a high price.
You state information in a way that implies there is only one proper way to treat a leather saddle. I suggest you don't know much about the history of use of leather. For example almost all leather is vegatable tanned nowadays for one important reason: it's an environementally friendly way of tanning leather. If I were to spend big money on a premium western saddle I would want cromium-tanned leather because it produces a tougher, longer-lasting leather.
For an excellent introduction into leather go to this link:
http://amol.org.au/recollections/2/2/03.htm
Gotta disagree, a lot, about this with you. While Neatsfoot oil may be good for horse saddles and others that have a base or support from underneath, Brooks saddles are unsupported fore and aft. Neatsfoot oil will soften the leather and allow it to stretch. As the Brooks saddle leather stretches, the sag has to be taken up with the tension bolt, which will eventually stretch the leather fibers beyond their capacity and allow the leather to weaken and tear.
The leather of the B-17 is the thinnest and most flexible of the Brooks non-sprung saddles. Using Neatsfoot oil is not recommended because Brooks wants to sell their stuff, but because it can/will shorten the useful life of the saddle. Check with *any* vendor of Brooks products and they will say the same.
Brooks saddles have been around for over 100 years, making the same recommendations they make today. I would think if they thought Neatsfoot oil was better, they would market a "Brooks Proofoil" with the same vigor they market their Proofide now.
Edited by Dave_Thompson (06/26/06 03:30 PM)
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Insightdriver
captain
 
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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No problem, Dave,
Like many other topics, there is a bunch of lore and religion involved in what is the right or best or correct way of taking care of a Brooks B-17. For what it's worth, I am a leather worker part time as a hobbyist and what I do works for me. It may not be PC, but in my experience there is nothing wrong with it. It might be pointed out that a lot depends on the environment. I live in the Sacramento valley where it is hot and low-humidity for most of the year. Any kind of leather left outside will dry out.
For the record, Proofide contains a mixture of tallow,cod oil,vegetable oil,paraffin, beeswax and citronella oil. I doubt any piece of leather would react differently to neatsfoot oil versus the mixture you buy from Brooks.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
   
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
Insightdriver wrote: No problem, Dave,
Like many other topics, there is a bunch of lore and religion involved in what is the right or best or correct way of taking care of a Brooks B-17. For what it's worth, I am a leather worker part time as a hobbyist and what I do works for me. It may not be PC, but in my experience there is nothing wrong with it. It might be pointed out that a lot depends on the environment. I live in the Sacramento valley where it is hot and low-humidity for most of the year. Any kind of leather left outside will dry out.
For the record, Proofide contains a mixture of tallow,cod oil,vegetable oil,paraffin, beeswax and citronella oil. I doubt any piece of leather would react differently to neatsfoot oil versus the mixture you buy from Brooks.
I understand what you are trying to achieve. I've been around leather saddles, horse, motorcycle and bicycle, for more than 50 years and will state categorically that Neatsfoot oil, when used on leather subject to constant and relatively high pressures, will allow the leather to stretch.
Again, on Brooks saddles the leather is 'suspended' between two points forming a "hammock". Leather that is softer will stretch sooner than leather that is not soft (the way Brooks uses leather). Neatsfoot oil exacerbates this stretching. From David Morgan's Care of Fine Leather: "Neatsfoot oil compounds, long recognized for damage to sewing, also weaken and blacken the leather."
From Wikipedia: "Neatsfoot oil is a yellow oil rendered and purified from the feet and shin bones (not the hooves) of cattle. It is used as a conditioning, softening and preservative for leather,...." (bold emphasis mine).
Neatsfoot oils are used to keep leathers from drying out and to keep the leather supple. This last quality is very good for leather that is not subjected to long and repeated stresses or that have a foundation such as horse or motorcycle saddles. Brooks and other bicycle saddles are subjected to long and repeated stresses are are not constructed with any kind of foundations.
I don't consider Brooks 100 years of experience of making and maintaining saddles a religion, I consider their advice eminently practical.
Spokane is often equally hot and dry as Sacramento as we are considered high desert. My saddles aren't dried out.
-------------------- Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Insightdriver
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http://www.dellsleatherworks.com/neatsfootoil.htm
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Neatsfoot oil is a yellow oil rendered and purified from the feet and shin bones (not the hooves) of cattle. It is used as a conditioning, softening and preservative for leather, and remains liquid down to a low temperature.
Neatsfoot oil is produced much less than it once was. Currently, the shins and feet of cattle are usually rendered along with the rest of the body. Also, many products sold as neatsfoot oil are actually diluted with petroleum oil, which is bad for leather.
The best quality neatsfoot oil comes from the legs of calves. The fat in animals' legs generally has a lower melting point than the body fat which means that it is more fluid and easier to use at lower temperatures making it more effective for treating leather.
'Neat' in the oil's name comes from an old term for animals of the genus Bos, especially cattle.
http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/articles/0397tack.shtml
I did not on David Morgan's site that he dings neatsfoot oil for damaging stitiching. The fact of the matter it is petroleum additives to impure neatsfoot oil that are bad.
I would add, as well, that my saddle was a natural tan color when new. I happen to like the brown color it now has. As far as softenting, you bet it does, just enough to make it very comfortable to me for long rides. I have not had to touch the tension adjustment and doubt I will have to for thousands of miles of riding.
Since neatsfoot oil has been used for leather goods longer than Brooks has been in business I have trust that the people who used leather daily as a part of life knew what they were doing.
Final Edit: neatsfoot oil is derived from the animal from which leather was derived so it would make sense, wouldn't it, to use the same oil that was in the animal's skin in the first place?
Edited by Insightdriver (06/28/06 01:48 PM)
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skuke
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Reged: 12/22/03
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Quote:
Insightdriver wrote: Since neatsfoot oil has been used for leather goods longer than Brooks has been in business I have trust that the people who used leather daily as a part of life knew what they were doing.
Final Edit: neatsfoot oil is derived from the animal from which leather was derived so it would make sense, wouldn't it, to use the same oil that was in the animal's skin in the first place?
Wood working and leather working are both very old trades. So to follow your first logic, wood workers know what they are doing.
However, your second logic, above, is false. If you apply your logic to wood products: Wood products are often rubbed with oils to PROTECT them. Yet, I'm pretty darn sure the oils used did not originate from that species of tree.
BTW, I know nothing of leather work and little of wood work. I own a really nice leather jacket I picked up in Argentina, does that count?
-------------------- Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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