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Cherrueix
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Reged: 01/19/06
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Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes
#7339 - 01/24/06 07:32 PM (152.163.100.13)

There is a plethora of bicycle frames today combining carbon and titanium. Some have ti lugs, others carbon lugs, some have carbon down tubes and others carbon seat tubes, etc. Can anyone cut through marketing hype and say authoritatively what makes sense. Or in other words, is there a compelling reason to stray from either a "pure" carbon frame or a "pure" titanium frame?

Where is biker's heaven? Brooklyn !!!


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Insightdriver
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Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Cherrueix]
#7341 - 01/25/06 01:58 AM (67.166.150.131)

Ti has abrasion resistance that carbon fiber does not have. Being that Ti and carbon fiber have similar coefficients of expansion they make a good match. Putting the best material for the application in each place in a bicycle is no different than what engineers do with materials choices in any machine.

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Dave_Thompson
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Reged: 12/19/03
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Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Cherrueix]
#7342 - 01/25/06 03:15 AM (67.185.76.57)

Quote:

Cherrueix wrote:
There is a plethora of bicycle frames today combining carbon and titanium. Some have ti lugs, others carbon lugs, some have carbon down tubes and others carbon seat tubes, etc. Can anyone cut through marketing hype and say authoritatively what makes sense. Or in other words, is there a compelling reason to stray from either a "pure" carbon frame or a "pure" titanium frame?

Where is biker's heaven? Brooklyn !!!



Compelling reason? No. It is about what you like and what works best for you. If the best bike you can find, for you, is a mixed materials bike, then that is the 'compelling' reason. The same can be said for a bike made of any material, if it's the best for you..........etc.

For me, the Serotta Ottrott has proved to be the best. I've had 3 Serottas at the same time, a steel Colorado III, a Legend Ti and the Ti/Carbon Ottrott, all with the same dimensions and geometries, fit with the same components and rode them interchangeably. The Ottrott proved that it was best and I sold the rest. Best can, and does mean different things to different people, and sometimes can be hard to explain. In my case, the Ottrott spoke to me the loudest.

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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Cherrueix
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Reged: 01/19/06
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Loc: In the virtual shadow of the W...
Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Dave_Thompson]
#7344 - 01/25/06 02:24 PM (64.12.116.69)

What do you mean by "the Ottrott spoke the loudest"? How did its speech differ from that of the other two bikes?

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Cherrueix
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Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Insightdriver]
#7345 - 01/25/06 02:30 PM (64.12.116.69)

I understand the general principle that you express. What I was trying to get at, perhaps erroneously, and looking only at frames for the time being, is that the mere variety of specific combinations (carbon tubes with ti lugs, ti tubes with carbon lugs, different tubes in one or the other), may show confusion, a solution looking for a problem, and perhaps a fad.

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Insightdriver
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Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Cherrueix]
#7348 - 01/26/06 01:11 AM (67.166.150.131)

Here is a perspective I have. Every part of a frame performs a different function. If one material can perform that function better than another material, then engineers tend to use it. I don't see any reason why a frame has to be made entirely of one material since this is only past practise. We have modern glues, epoxies, manufacturing techniques and computer-aided design and finite element analysis making designs more well-engineered rather than based on emperiacal incremental improvements.

Aluminum, for example, is great where the frame wants to uber-stiff. Where the frame wants to have some flex to soften rough pavement, then carbon fiber, steel and titanium are used to good effect. Another design aproach is the use the expensive material, such as titanium where the properties of it make the most sense and use a cheaper material, such as carbon fiber where it's properties can be used to good effect, in essence making a cheaper frame than one made from just titanium.

A casual look at a bicycle frame cannot give anyone a good idea on just how much engineering goes into it. What we want in a frame is torsional stiffness (that's the flex we see when we pedal that many feel robs energy when pedaling hard). On the other hand, we do not want vertical stiffness since that leads to a harsh ride. The main diamond in a frame is very stiff vertically, it's a triangle, after all. What we want to have sufficient flex is the front fork. The fork wants to flex vertically but we don't want any torsional flex in the fork. Carbon fiber is being used more and more in forks because it has excellent properties for that function.

Chainstays want to be torsionally stiff and have some vertical compliance. They work with the seatstays in that function. Steel, aluminim, titanium and carbon fiber can be engineered to work well in that area of the bike.

Butting of tubes in steel, aluminum and titatnium are used to help stiffen the tube where necessary and shedding mass where stresses are less. Carbon fiber layups perform the same function.

Some designers don't want to go whole-hog into using a completely different material than what they have their expertise in. Titanium frame makers therefore may use carbon fiber tubing in the areas where they are confident they will do the better job with the least liability and risk. I don't believe mixing materials in a frame is a fashion. I believe it is the attempt of engineers to use what materials they have to make the optimum frame they can.

Material science is constantly advancing. At the beginning of the industrial revolution men began making self-propelled vehicles. Steel became dominant because the properties of steel made it the most suitable for making a light, stiff, yet compliant frame. When aluminum became cheaper and designers began to understand the properties better, aluminum frames became dominant because an aluminum frame could be made lighter than a steel frame without costing more.

Where titanium has properties that rival steel and is lighter, it's downside is that it is a very expensive metal. You can't make a cheap frame from titanium, hence you only see high-end bikes made with the material. Carbon-composites have such potentially great properties that more and more designers are becoming profficient in designing frames with the material making them the lightest frames possible that have adequate stiffness and strength that no metal can rival. There are cons to using carbon-composites just as there are cons to using any material, nothing being perfect.

People will often mention that steel frames are best because they bend when they fail. Many forget, though, that high-end steel frames use alloys of steel that are brittle and will fracture when they fail, rather than bend. Carbon-composites have rather poor abrasion resistance. A chain suck at high speed that throws the chain can dig through the bottom bracket or chainstay area of bike in short order. In areas where abrasion resistance is highly desireable, carbon fiber is not the optimum choice. That said, a bike frame can be engineered from many materials to be a bullet-proof frame. The tradoffs will be in weight-penalties. Steel is a dense material so it's not easy to design a steel bike to compete in the weight weenie category.

No matter what materials go into a bike, a poor design will ruin your day, if not threatening your life. There are too many variables to generalize that one material is superior to another in all areas of a bicycle. I happen to be attracted to carbon fiber, not for any other reason that it appeals to my sense of style. What type of bike you ride depends on your style. For what it's worth, we will see manufacturers constantly experimenting with mixing materials in a frame.


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Dave_Thompson
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Reged: 12/19/03
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Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Cherrueix]
#7349 - 01/26/06 01:23 AM (67.185.76.57)

Quote:

Cherrueix wrote:
What do you mean by "the Ottrott spoke the loudest"? How did its speech differ from that of the other two bikes?



The way it felt and responded to me. The other two Serottas I had were identical in all respects, except for the frame materials. All handled very well, as Serottas do. Prior to getting the Ottrott, I had (at different times) 3 Ti Serottas, a Legend DKS, Legend ST and and an Hors Categorie. Loved 'em all, but the Ottrott felt that much better that I've kept it.

The ride qualities that the Ottrott posseses pleases me and makes my rides that much better. Of all the Serottas I've owned (8) the Ottrott is the most relaxed feeling, best behaved over bad roads and leaves me with a feeling of total control. Not that the others were ill-behaved or had bad manners, not at all. The Ottrott is, for me, just that much better.

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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Cherrueix
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Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Insightdriver]
#7379 - 01/31/06 03:29 PM (205.188.116.200)

captain, oh my captain:

It is the rare web site that has a more detailed and thoughtful analysis of the comparative properties of bike materials.

thanks,

cherrueix


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Dave_Thompson
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Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Cherrueix]
#7381 - 01/31/06 07:36 PM (67.185.76.57)

Now, after I've said all that, let me further state my belief that a well designed and built bike, made from any standard frame materials, will ride better than a bike that is poorly designed and built that uses the very latest and and trickest of materials.

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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Dave_Thompson
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Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Cherrueix]
#7384 - 02/01/06 03:11 AM (67.185.76.57)

Quote:

Cherrueix wrote:
captain, oh my captain:

It is the rare web site that has a more detailed and thoughtful analysis of the comparative properties of bike materials.

thanks,

cherrueix



Again, to answer your original question, there is *no* compelling reason to stray from a bike made of a single material. That is unless you ****like**** a bike that happens to be made of mixed materials, and that bike suits your needs, whatever they may be. Your butt won't lie to you.

To have an individual, such as myself, give you a comparative analysis of bike materials would and could NOT take into account how the bike was built and designed and how it felt/suited/pleased the rider.

I am quite fortunate that I've owned a wide variety of bikes, made of many materials, but I can't objectively tell you why one is better than another *for me*. It's a very subjective thing. To be completely objective about something as personal as bikes, you have to ignore everything about fit, feel, senses and the other important qualatives you use when judging a bike or bikes.

--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.


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Allan
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Reged: 05/04/04
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Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Dave_Thompson]
#7396 - 02/04/06 11:36 PM (66.205.8.2)

Not to mention the FAD of making rear stays out of carbon while the rest of the bike is either aluminum or titanium.
While carbon stays should be lighter as in plain tubing, to attach these carbon parts to the BB section and seat tube junction means that reinforcement is necessary at their ends for glueing, this addition of extra material makes the carbon assembly slightly heavier than a comparitable weldable tube of either aluminum or Ti.
I'm not sure about the so called carbon "ride tuned" rear ends, since the rear stays are the last place you want any flexing to occur being these tubes are the smallest diameter on the frameset.

--------------------
Its time to ride.


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Insightdriver
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Reged: 03/07/04
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Re: Combined Carbon/Titanium Bikes new [Re: Allan]
#7397 - 02/04/06 11:41 PM (67.166.150.131)

I believe that the reason rear stays are thin is because the flexure here leads to ride softness. Too stiff and the ride is harsh. Maybe you are showing more your point of view about carbon fiber being used rather than educating us with your knowledge.

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