Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I for one (hoping I'm not alone) would like a forum that discusses how bike geometry. For example, how wheel weight and stiffness difference translate into how a bike feels. Another example is how differences in trail affect the feel of how quickly and easily a bike seems to make turns. Another example is the change in ride quality when chainstays are lengthened versus the bikes with the rear wheel tight up against a shaped seat tube.
Another part of the discussion could concern the compromises that go into setting up the geometry of a bike. I'm interested in this as I have direct experience in having had two full custom Calfee Tetra Pros, the main difference is my second one having a slacker head tube angle to eliminate toe overlap, which resulted in slightly longer trail. This gives my current bike a bit of understeer which I happen to like more than the neutral steering I used to have.
I would like the input of everyone who has gained knowledge of the performance variation geometry differences caused.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 719
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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These (many) subjects most likely could be discussed and answered on our frame builders section of the forum.
I think though that you may find that handling/ride qualities/etc. are not the sole responsibility of any one part of a bicycle, rather frame design and building is a 'gestalt' thing; the unified whole is different than the sum of the parts.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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The Frame Builders forum is technially closed to the public. I am not a frame builder so that would not be the appropriate place to bring up discussions.
I do agree that there is an overall impression a machine gives one, and that impression cannot be broken up into the individual parts that make the contribution to the impression. I do, however, know that changing a fork on a bike, for instance, that yeilds a different trail due to a different curvature of the fork would yeild the ideal case that shows what the change in trail will do to the perception of ride quality when all other variables remained the same.
An anecdote I would like to share is this: On my first regular ride on my first new Calfee bike I noticed that it felt plush, that bumps I was familiar with felt softer. Before my next ride I pumped up my tires and noted they were about 80 psi before I pumped them up to 100 psi. I went on the same regular ride and noted that the bumps felt more harsh. I learned the lesson on how variation in tire pressures make the bike feel different. On the same subject, in the thread on my first flat, the first indication I got that something was different is my bike squirmed in a turn and skipped out just a bit. I rode nearly another two miles until I realized something was wrong and felt my tire and found it was soft. It wasn't flat, but it had leaked a lot of air. Based on what I've discovered I think I might get a pair of softer rubber tires and keep them at a lower inflation for days when I feel like I'd like to ride a Cadillac. 
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 719
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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If you are able, fit a pair of larger tires on your bike and run lower pressure. When I had my Calfees, I would use 700x25 tires and run them with 90psi. My wife does the same with her current Calfee. Nice ride with no penalty.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Hi Dave,
Exactly what I am talking about. You and I have direct experience on the difference in ride quality on just a different set of tires at a lower air pressure. I am running 700X25 on my bike now. That's what I started with. There might be some 700-28 that might fit. I don't see a reason to go any bigger at this point. If I wanted to really put bigger rubber on I would have had to choose a different fork altogether.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I recently went back to Craig Calfee's site and found that he indeed put a paper on bike geometry and handling on his site.
http://www.calfeedesign.com/frontendterms.htm
Take a read for it is exactly what I was thinking about when I made the original post in this thread. I also read similar on other bike manufacturer sites that I can't recall offhand. It's this kind of information that I think a lot of cyclists don't understand and when they test-ride a bike, they have no idea what makes one bike feel different than another, as far as handling characteristics are concerned, and end up thinking it's a quality difference in the frame.
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rock
new member
Reged: 12/20/06
Posts: 7
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Hey - your posts are really different ?
Boy oh boy there is the one post about you letting someone steal you bike in old town Sacramento and then you turn right around and let someone steal your bike off your apartment porch. Gimee a break ? like there must be something that causes you embarrassment?
I am now getting the impression that you have just begun ridding a bicycle and have yet to finish a 10 mile trike ride.
What you are discussing re: tire pressure is like baby talk. Either that or you have learned to type at a very early age and have just learned how the internet functions. Or you absolutely disrespect EVERYONE else that reads this forum -
And this bit about:
?I do, however, know that changing a fork on a bike, for instance, that yeilds a different trail due to a different curvature of the fork would yeild the ideal case that shows what the change in trail will do to the perception of ride quality when all other variables remained the same.?
How many words can one person waste? Like you seem to feel this is LOST facts that should some how be presented on a special HISTORY channel presentation.
Just finished your rampage regarding your destruction of a Brooks saddle ? it would be humorous if you were not so sincere about your misinformation. The mishap of a Brooks saddle is probably what is giving you such a strange ridding position as you discussed in another post.\\\\
Sorry for the intrusion, ole boy, but you need to get a job or get a life and get off of you self imposed ivory tower. Or perhaps go into politics -
Your Friend
Rock
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Welcome to the board, Rock.
Apparently you must like to find me someone you like to judge for some reason. Is there a particular reason? I simple post what floats my boat and I don't let anyone in particular bother me. Do you happen to know how old I am and in what condition my body is in? Not everyone who rides a bike is in great shape and has a body that is in perfect shape. As far as I know, I am not the only one who rides a bike that has a slight degree of bias toward one side rather than being perfectly balanced in the middle. For what it's worth, if I weren't riding my bicycle my joints would begin fusing and I'd end up being stuck in a wheelchair so even if my riding style seems strange to you, it's good enough for me.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 719
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Rock:
One can have differences with another's opinion and do it in such a way where each explains the merits of their arguments. More often than not minds are not changed and each 'agrees to disagree'.
This forum has maintained a good decorum while various topics have been discussed throughout the years. Your post however does nothing to further that, yours only inflames, serves to insult and does nothing to increase our bike culture or awareness.
Agree, disagree or remain neutral, however in all cases be a gentleman!
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
Edited by Dave_Thompson (12/24/06 11:22 PM)
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rock
new member
Reged: 12/20/06
Posts: 7
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Hi there:
Hey - PLEASE read all of the words I posted! Don't just pick and focus on that to which you can readily reply!!
PLEASE -WHEN you """""""""""" I simple post what floats my boat""""""""""put some thought into it. Simply consider the fact that there are those who visit this forum who MAY BE MISLED by your misinformation.
If your physical condition were to be as you suggest, (For what it's worth, if I weren't riding my bicycle my joints would begin fusing (/////////?????????) ) you should be the BEST one to KNOW the LBS is NO place -----whatsoever------- to handle physical therapy/medical conditions but yet you post (paraphrase) "I got LLD so I'm goanna visit my LBS".
Gentlemanly or no, I gotta ask this: As you suggest ( For what it's worth, if I weren't riding my bicycle my joints would begin fusing ) If, indeed the only reason your joints aren?t fusing is because you are riding your bicycle, why are you so careless with your bicycle? You let someone steal one in Old Town and another one off of your balcony?
Judging you? What a laugh. As I told you I am new to this forum and took the time to review past posts to get an idea of what is going on and glean information... Time after time your post come up with mis-information with an attitude. Very few post , if any question your strange posts. But, you always seem to be BEGGING for dialogue, but don?t like discourse. So, here I am. Want to talk about it like gentlemen?
As always, I remain
Your friend,
Rock
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rock
new member
Reged: 12/20/06
Posts: 7
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Hi:
To quote you referring to my post " yours only inflames, serves to insult and does nothing to increase our bike culture or awareness"
With all due respect to those visit this forum, MISINFORMATION does nothing to "increase our bike culture or awareness", but only "serves to insult" and "inflame " !
AND, without recourse, it just might POSSIBLY cause untenable misfortune to those who go along with it.
Being new to this forum, I was astonished at the latitude allowed for uncontested posting of misinformation.
Please accept my apology for being other that a neutered gentleman.
Rock
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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I was always told I should not play with trolls
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 719
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
rock wrote:
Hi:
To quote you referring to my post " yours only inflames, serves to insult and does nothing to increase our bike culture or awareness"
With all due respect to those visit this forum, MISINFORMATION does nothing to "increase our bike culture or awareness", but only "serves to insult" and "inflame " !
AND, without recourse, it just might POSSIBLY cause untenable misfortune to those who go along with it...<snip>.
Rock
Well Rock, since you have appointed yourself forum police, if you wanted to correct what you see as mis-information, you certainly don't do it by Quote:
rock wrote: I am now getting the impression that you have just begun ridding a bicycle and have yet to finish a 10 mile trike ride........
How many words can one person waste?.......
Sorry for the intrusion, ole boy, but you need to get a job or get a life........
Those words certainly don't go anywhere toward getting folks attention and persuading them to your point of view. Your point of view is beyond information correction, it goes to adversarial and churlish.
If you have information that would answer the posters original questions, please post it here. Otherwise readers of this forum may consider you a troll. Which, considering your lack of positive direction in this whole thing, may prove to be true.
Edited by Dave_Thompson (12/29/06 06:17 AM)
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rock
new member
Reged: 12/20/06
Posts: 7
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Hey davie
what ever!
read what you want and ignore reality.
Your Troll,
Rock
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 719
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
rock wrote:
Hey davie
what ever!
read what you want and ignore reality.
Your Troll,
Rock
Rockie:
I've been around here for awhile, made a few posts and I've not read anything, anywhere, something that you've said that was constructive. Or meaningful. Or much related to the OP's request for dialog regarding bike geometry.
Give me some reality dude, and quit with the Britney Spears imitation....what ever, sheesh.
Maybe we should ask for a driver's license to prove you're an adult.
Troll.
--------------------
Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Insightdriver
captain
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 472
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Your posts tend to be a bit unintelligible, so, for that reason I consider you being a troll and can easily discount any opinion you have of me.
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rock
new member
Reged: 12/20/06
Posts: 7
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I agree insightless driver.
Seems words are wasted
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BlueJays
journeyman
Reged: 09/21/07
Posts: 69
Loc: United States
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It would be great if the occasional well-known framebuilder visited and posted hyperlinks to whitepapers they may have written on the topic. The real confusion occurs when an anxious buyer is listening to multiple craftsmen (who have excelled in the industry) with very differing opinion. At that point, the decision would seem to tilt towards the builder whom perception indicates "understands" the buyer the most.
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