mic
new member
Reged: 10/26/06
Posts: 5
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Does anyone know the difference in ride characteristics (if there are any) between these two frames? This bike would be ridden by a superlight weight climber.
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Dave_Thompson
prophet
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 717
Loc: Spokane, Washington
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Quote:
mic wrote:
Does anyone know the difference in ride characteristics (if there are any) between these two frames? This bike would be ridden by a superlight weight climber.
Calfee would be an excellent source for that info. They are quite candid and forthcoming about the similarities/differences of their bikes.
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Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
Licensed bike geek.
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Darby
sage
Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 423
Loc: Orange County California
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Quote:
mic wrote:
Does anyone know the difference in ride characteristics (if there are any) between these two frames? This bike would be ridden by a superlight weight climber.
I only have second hand knowledge but I hear that the Tetra and Luna ride similar. The Dragonfly's ride is livelier. The Boron used in the Dragonfly does not dampen the ride the same way as Carbon Fiber, but adds more strength which is needed because of the D'Fly's reduced weight.
If weight savings is most important, then get a D'Fly. If you want a softer ride, get a Tetra or Luna.
Bruce
Edited by Darby (03/23/07 01:35 AM)
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vaxn8r
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 222
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Quote:
If weight savings is most important, then get a D'Fly. If you want a softer ride, get a Tetra or Luna.
Softer ride? Have you ridden any of these bikes? I have ridden all three and that's not how I'd describe any of them. All more similar than different. I'd guess if blindfolded no one could tell the difference with any degree of accuracy. Don't ride blindfolded though, it's really dangerous.
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Darby
sage
Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 423
Loc: Orange County California
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Quote:
vaxn8r wrote:
Quote:
If weight savings is most important, then get a D'Fly. If you want a softer ride, get a Tetra or Luna.
Softer ride? Have you ridden any of these bikes? I have ridden all three and that's not how I'd describe any of them. All more similar than different. I'd guess if blindfolded no one could tell the difference with any degree of accuracy. Don't ride blindfolded though, it's really dangerous.
Yes, I have a Luna, but have not ridden a Dragonfly. I was just passing along what I have heard from the owner of my bike shop who sells a lot of Calfees. I also had a conversation with Craig Calfee who told me that the Boron used in the D'Fly doesn't provide the same damping quality as the "all" carbon fiber material used in both the Tetra and Luna. I may have been reading between the lines too much and misunderstood Craig's point.
If I am passing on misinformation, my apologies.
Bruce
Edited by Darby (03/27/07 03:46 PM)
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Nev
captain
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 373
Loc: Never where I want to be
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Quote:
vaxn8r wrote:
Quote:
Don't ride blindfolded though, it's really dangerous.
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 322
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Quote:
Nev wrote:
Quote:
vaxn8r wrote:
Quote:
Don't ride blindfolded though, it's really dangerous.
Yeah, but can he juggle at the same time? 
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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skuke
captain
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 322
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Quote:
Nev wrote:
Quote:
vaxn8r wrote:
Quote:
Don't ride blindfolded though, it's really dangerous.
I went out on a ride today and along a fairly straight and empty road devoid of cars, I rode for about 100' several times with my eyes closed. It's not hard. Stupid and dangerous perhaps, but certainly not difficult.
I decided to ride at a faster speed rather than slower because I wanted the centrifugal forces to help keep me upright incase I hit something (bump/hole). I was going about 15-18mph.
I found that I pretty much stayed in the center of the road and didn't veer one way or another. After getting somewhat comfortable (if it could be really called that), I started weaving left and right gently. My hope was again to stay in the center of the road. I instead wound up on the right side, perhaps because I'm right handed.
The most challenging part was the wind. A storm came through yesterday and it was very gusty today.
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Skuke
95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
92 Bridgestone MB-1
90 Moser 51.151
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icycle
new member
Reged: 06/18/07
Posts: 1
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Darby is correct. I own both a tetra and a dragonfly. I prefer the tetra for ride and the dragonfly for lightness. I'd say out of both bikes the tetra is my favorite. the dragonfly is harsher. and yes, if I rode both with a blindfold I could tell the difference, easily.
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Darby
sage
Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 423
Loc: Orange County California
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Quote:
icycle wrote:
Darby is correct. I own both a tetra and a dragonfly. I prefer the tetra for ride and the dragonfly for lightness. I'd say out of both bikes the tetra is my favorite. the dragonfly is harsher. and yes, if I rode both with a blindfold I could tell the difference, easily.
Thanks for the feedback. It is good to know that I am not spreading mis-information. I had heard that the two bikes ride very different. When I finally replace my Luna it will probably be a Tetra that takes it place.
Bruce
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Darby
sage
Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 423
Loc: Orange County California
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Quote:
icycle wrote:
Darby is correct. I own both a tetra and a dragonfly. I prefer the tetra for ride and the dragonfly for lightness. I'd say out of both bikes the tetra is my favorite. the dragonfly is harsher. and yes, if I rode both with a blindfold I could tell the difference, easily.
I have been thinking about your comments about the Tetra and the Dragonfly. How much do you notice the 1/2 lb difference in weight between the two bikes?
I believe that a Tetra or a Luna would be better bike for my type of riding. I typically do club rides and training rides. I haven't done a century yet, but I will. However, a century will probably be the longest ride I would ever feel the need to tackle.
My Luna would probably last me for the rest of my life but I think I need a head tube extension. I get neck pain on long rides. So I may end up replacing it with is a 60CM Tetra with a 2CM head tube extension.
Bruce
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Bruce
contributor
Reged: 12/27/03
Posts: 133
Loc: North of NYC
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I would go for the DFly. I have ridden a tetra, but not a Luna. I know someone who has a Luna and a DFly, and prefers the DFly, it is a better bike.
I find my DFly is very light in the rear, not bad, but just a feeling. I also ride a Trek 5900, a much more dead bike, but stiff and a heavier feeling in the back. The DFly is a much more responsive bike than the 5900.
The biggest problem with the DFly is you have to really go for high end components to get the most out of the bike. I would go all Campy Record, or Record and swap out some things where you can save some weight, like in the brakes (Zero Gravity's are great) and in the pedals (Bebob if you want an all steel axle, not Ti like Speedplay). You will also want light wheels. I use Topolinos for everyday stuff, but you will want to go with a carbon set if you want to race. Light wheels are to die for, they just go!
You should be under 16lbs for the bike with out any issues, more if it is a small frame.
For a light weight climber, I would not spend the extra 1/2 pound on the frame, you will not be happy with it in the end. Go DFly and end bike envy once and for all.
Bruce
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Darby
sage
Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 423
Loc: Orange County California
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Quote:
Bruce wrote:
I would go for the DFly. I have ridden a tetra, but not a Luna. I know someone who has a Luna and a DFly, and prefers the DFly, it is a better bike.
Bruce
Bruce thanks for the feedback on the D?fly. The D'fly has long been at the top of my wish list. The only concern I have had with the D'fly was the ride quality. Since the D?fly is a full race bike, I would expect the ride quality to be second to performance. Can I expect the same ride quality that I get from my Luna? My Luna rides great, if I could get the bars up a little higher and wouldn?t consider replacing it. The type of riding I do is training rides and club rides. I will never race.
I also have Topolinos wheels and a mixture of Campy Record and Chorus so my components are fairly light, but they could be lighter.
I think I will visit the Calfee factory in the near future and ride a few of their frames. I would like to compare the ride of a Dragonfly, Tetra and a Bamboo. A friend just bought a Calfee Bamboo and loves it. However, he rides really long rides. He rode a 504 mile ride on it and yesterday rode it in a double century. He tells me that the Bamboo bike is the most comfortable bike he has ever ridden.
The concerns I have with the Bamboo is the weight of the frame which is about 3.5 lbs where the D?fly is 2 lbs; and longevity of the frame. Calfee warranties the Bamboo frame for 10 years like the Luna and not 25 like the D?fly and the Tetra.
Bruce
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rnhood
friend
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 38
Loc: NC
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I believe the Dragonfly is mostly an experimental bike in that, at the time of it's conception, there was a desire to push the limits on frame weight by using the latest composites with proprietary construction techniques. Low weight was the priority, with the secondary priority being that handling and ride characteristics would be as close to the established Luna and Tetra line as possible (they were already setting the benchmark for carbon frames). To that end, I think the DF was very successful, at least from what I have heard from owners. That was several years ago and, technology keeps on evolving - for better or worse.
My advice would be to get a DF if it's weight that concerns you the most and, you are even willing to slightly compromise on the ride and, maybe even long term frame integrity to a point, to have this ultra light weight bike. This does not mean that you will compromise ride and possibly frame integrity but, there is a risk of it. It's the risk that you have to weigh and decide on.
For me, I am perfectly content with my Tetra. It is plenty light, plenty stiff, plenty strong and refined. My bike will take 28 tires and, thats another plus since I ride on dirt and sand roads at times. And, I don't have flats with these tires. They are heavier than the 25's but, they still weigh far less than I do. And my Tetra was built from the geometry tables for a Serotta 62 frame so, it is slightly relaxed from the standard Calfee numbers. Another point in it's favor in my opinion.
For what it's worth, my advice would be to get a Bamboo frame with slightly relaxed geometry (like standard Serotta geometry). Unless you are 25 or 30 years old and active on the race circuit, it's the ride that you should be going after - not the ability of the bike to dive into a corner at 50 MPH while jockying for position for the sprint to the finish line. Its the ride that will make you look forward to getting in the saddle every day with a smile on your face. If you get 10 years out of it then it falls apart, you still got a good deal. The last car I purchased (a 2000 Toyota Camry) lost $14K in 4 years and, I never wrecked it. Yep, I paid $24K for an XLE Camry and, sold it in 2004 for $10K. And you are worried about a couple thousand in 10 years?? Give me a break. Also, 3.5 lbs is nothing comparatively speaking. That is about the weight of the finest steel bikes still being built by Seven, Sachs, Vanailla, Serotta and the like. And, there are people standing in line to buy these bikes.
Edited by rnhood (06/25/07 03:11 AM)
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Darby
sage
Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 423
Loc: Orange County California
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Quote:
rnhood wrote:
For what it's worth, my advice would be to get a Bamboo frame with slightly relaxed geometry (like standard Serotta geometry). Unless you are 25 or 30 years old and active on the race circuit, it's the ride that you should be going after - not the ability of the bike to dive into a corner at 50 MPH while jockying for position for the sprint to the finish line. Its the ride that will make you look forward to getting in the saddle every day with a smile on your face. If you get 10 years out of it then it falls apart, you still got a good deal. The last car I purchased (a 2000 Toyota Camry) lost $14K in 4 years and, I never wrecked it. Yep, I paid $24K for an XLE Camry and, sold it in 2004 for $10K. And you are worried about a couple thousand in 10 years?? Give me a break. Also, 3.5 lbs is nothing comparatively speaking. That is about the weight of the finest steel bikes still being built by Seven, Sachs, Vanailla, Serotta and the like. And, there are people standing in line to buy these bikes.
Thanks, I appreciate your feedback. What I am looking for in my next bike is a bike that I can enjoy riding all day long. Speed and handling are secondary to me. Mostly I ride in a straight line anyway. Furthermore, I do agree with you that 10 years is a long time to own a bike, especially when I will be riding it 6 days a week. I am sure 10 years of use would be plenty.
I am going to take a closer look at the Bamboo bike, but would not rule out a D'fly or a Tetra.
Thanks,
Bruce
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ROP
new member
Reged: 06/26/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
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I am 6'5" and weigh 230lbs. My body fat percentage is low enough that losing weight is not an option (6%). Calfee lists the Luna as it's strongest frame, yet has a shorter warranty period than the Dragonfly. That seems somewhat counterintuitive. I really need a stiff, durable bike (especially around the BB, I make my high end Steel/Dura Ace bike creak like an old country porch). Would I be better off getting a stock Luna or getting a custom DF with extra stiffness options being used. Is there diminishing returns on the extra price?
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Edited by ROP (06/26/07 10:26 PM)
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Darby
sage
Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 423
Loc: Orange County California
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Quote:
ROP wrote:
I am 6'5" and weigh 230lbs. My body fat percentage is low enough that losing weight is not an option (6%). Calfee lists the Luna as it's strongest frame, yet has a shorter warranty period than the Dragonfly. That seems somewhat counterintuitive. I really need a stiff, durable bike (especially around the BB, I make my high end Steel/Dura Ace bike creak like an old country porch). Would I be better off getting a stock Luna or getting a custom DF with extra stiffness options being used. Is there diminishing returns on the extra price?
I think the Luna will last just as long as either a Tetra or Dragonfly. I believe the reason for the shorter warranty is that the Luna is a lower priced frame.
The Luna rides very similar to the Tetra. The Tetra cost more because there is more labor cost that goes into wrapping the lugs by hand; and because the Tetra has Titanium in the drops outs, head tube and bottom bracket area.
Personally, I find the Luna to be plenty stiff enough for the riding I do. I was at 230 lbs when I started riding but have since dropped 10 lbs.
You could call Craig Calfee and ask him about it. I don't think you will find many bicycle manufacturers that will take calls from consumers. However, Craig can make a bike as stiff as you could want. I just called Calfee's office and they said that Craig is out the country until Friday.
Bruce
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ROP
new member
Reged: 06/26/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
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Thanks for the response. I would still be interested to see if it's price or construction that makes for a warranty differential. I could probably use an extra inch or two in my top tube so i don't have to use a 120+ stem to make the bike fit. At the same time cost effectiveness shouldn't be ignored either. Man, tough decisions....
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Darby
sage
Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 423
Loc: Orange County California
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Quote:
ROP wrote:
Thanks for the response. I would still be interested to see if it's price or construction that makes for a warranty differential. I could probably use an extra inch or two in my top tube so i don't have to use a 120+ stem to make the bike fit. At the same time cost effectiveness shouldn't be ignored either. Man, tough decisions....
From the people I have spoken with at Calfee, my local bike shop, and on this forum, the major reason for the reduced price on the Luna is that less labor hours have gone into building it. The Luna is built with more machine work as opposed to hand work on the Tetra. I am riding a six year old Luna and haven?t had any issues with the construction of the bike.
However, I was doing my research just like you are doing before I bought mine. I rode about a half dozen bikes, but Trek, Felt and Serrotta are the only ones that come to mind. I do remember that I like the feel and ride quality of the Calfee far better than any of the bikes I rode. To me, a Calfee is like a BMW. It has a very comfortable ride but is also fun to ride at the same time.
One more thing about Calfees, they are probably the most repairable carbon fiber bikes you can buy. Craig has fixed bikes that looked like they have been run over by a truck. He is now fixing other brands of bikes. So, if you smash your Trek, Craig can fix it.
The people at Calfee are very helpful. They can explain the manufacturing processes or answer any fit questions you have.
Bruce
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Bruce
contributor
Reged: 12/27/03
Posts: 133
Loc: North of NYC
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Bruce,
I just finished a double century on the DFly. It is a very comfortable bike. Craig can build it differently if you feel you want a very stiff bottom bracket, but I am 6'2" and I can't feel any flex in the BB. Plenty stiff for me.
I choose the DFly because I have hear so many good things about Craig's bikes (all true!) and I wanted a light weight frame. I do a lot of performance riding (not racing, but I have done some) and I wanted to reduce the weight as much as possible. I also use Topolino wheels, they are a killer combo with a carbon frame, just suck up road vibrations like nothing else. I have a 60cm bike that weighs in about 16lbs. Not too shabby. Most under 16lb bikes are 54 or 56.
I don't think you will be disappointed with a DFly.
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dfcas
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 141
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ROP--
In stock sizes,The Luna and the D'Fly are more alike in construction technique and the tetra is somewhat different.All 3 use the same rear triangle,but the main triangle tubesets vary. The Luna and D'Fly use an aluminum BB shell,and the headtube is al.The tetra uses Ti in the BB shell,and the headrube may be ti or Al,depending on size.
Things change when you go custom on a D'Fly-joints amy be lugged,or hand wrapped,depending on angles.
I would suggest you order a frame,rather than buy off the peg.The order form has a place for rider weight,and they consider this when choosing the tubeset.Also,short of full custom,you can get head-seat tube extensions,decal choices,color,and some other things,such as requesting the stiffest possible BB.
The Luna is not a "worse" bike.The price and shorter history result in the shorter warranty,which protects Calfee somewhat.Theoretically,the Luna has the most vihration damping ride,but most say they can tell no difference from the Tetra.
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no signature
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Dfly
new member
Reged: 08/22/07
Posts: 5
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Wow. I find this post very interesting. I wish I had seen this forum sooner. I have a Luna Tri that I have ridden for five years and really like it. It has a tri-geometry with 650 wheels and is the only bike I had ridden in that period. I really came to appreciate the Calfee ride. Then, a little over a month ago, I saw a 50-cm Dragonfly for sale with little (1,000 km) use. I have bought it. So far, I am still getting accustomed to it. One thing I am adjusting to is the slightly larger size (700 wheels, which changes your center of gravity, and the different geometry. Also, it has been a long time in the tri-setup so I am still noticing a difference in the overall ride. I am not 100% totally comfortable yet, but not worried - a few more tweaks in the set-up. I will say, without doubt, the ride is definitely different on the D-fly. I love my Luna and it really felt like an extension. The D-fly rides very well, too. You can certainly feel the lightness - and appreciate it when you get moving. I do think the Luna had better acceleration, however - perhaps due to the 650 wheels. I returned from a solid week in the Dolomites (Italy) as its "honeymoon" ride. In all fairness, it may not have been a fair test since I was lacking a 27 on my cassette which would have been quite helpful. (It was challenging riding - true for any bike.) I am trying to ride more of the flats now that I am back home to get more comfortable. It is light and it feels that way. At this point, I do not have the same familiarity in the handling, but, again, that may be due to the weight (6.2 kgs). I have / had AC 350 rims, but broke a spoke in the back wheel (first time ever for this...) on my last day in the Dolomites. Now, I have a Mavic 33 on and the ride feels a bit more solid - despite giving up some grams, the ride has improved in my opinion. Am I glad I got the bike? Ubetcha! Although, I will keep my Luna as it is too hard to part with it and I still plan on doing tri's. The D-fly is fast, and fast-feeling when you can get your rhythm. I have no complaints with the Luna, I expect to get to this point with the Dragonfly. So far, about 1,000 km on it, but tweaking with the set-up. I am looking forward to it.
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Marshall
new member
Reged: 06/25/07
Posts: 8
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Where do you get that Lunas and Dragonflys have aluminum BBs and head tubes (and Tetra head tubes in certain sizes)?
White paper on Calfee site clearly states that titanium is the way to go for carbon to metal bonding:
http://www.calfeedesign.com/whitepaper8.htm
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dfcas
contributor
Reged: 12/19/03
Posts: 141
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Calfee uses fiberglass to isolate the carbon aluminum interface,which prvents galvanic corrosion.
The Luna used Al in the BB shell and headtube to reduce cost,and over time it became clear that this technique was working out.When the Dragonfly was introduced,the weightsavings of aluminum gave it the nod. I'm pretty sure that later on,large tetra headtubes were aluminum to save weight,but I may be wrong about that.
I have a Luna,and I assure you the BB and headtube are aluminum. Some consider the Tetra the pinnacle product,but others consider the dragonfly the flagship.In the end,it is up to the buyer as to which frame speaks to them.
I really like the sculpted lugs on the Dragonfly...Anf the Ti BB of the Tetra. That said,my Luna rocks and is far better than I.
dan
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