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Darby
sage
*****

Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 436
Loc: Orange County California
Tubes
#8951 - 07/21/07 07:25 AM (66.27.148.144)

Installed a new set of Conti Grand Prix 4000 tires today and thirty seconds after I had air in the back tire the tube exploded. So, I pulled it apart and replaced it with another performance tube, pumped up the tire up to 120lbs and put the bike back in the garage. After an hour I decided to take the bike for short spin up and down my street to see how the tires felt. The ride was maybe five minute and then I put the bike back in the garage. 15 minutes or so later I heard a loud pop coming from my garage. It was my second tube exploding.

As I write this, I just finished putting a third tube on the wheel. I checked it carefully to make the tube didn't get pinched while installing.

Is there something that I could be doing wrong? I think it's unlikely that both tubes were defective.

Bruce


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Darby
sage
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Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 436
Loc: Orange County California
Re: Tubes new [Re: Darby]
#8952 - 07/21/07 03:47 PM (66.27.148.144)

Aired up the back tire for my morning ride today and boom, tube number three explodes. I checked this one very well to make sure the tube wasn't pinched.

My front tube hasn't exploded! What is going on?

Bruce


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cccyclist
journeyman


Reged: 09/27/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Central California
Re: Tubes new [Re: Darby]
#8953 - 07/21/07 10:50 PM (71.102.244.171)

Make sure the tire is seated properly and also check that the rim tape isn't compromised. Sometimes new folding tires have trouble seating properly at first.

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Darby
sage
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Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 436
Loc: Orange County California
Re: Tubes new [Re: cccyclist]
#8954 - 07/22/07 03:12 AM (66.27.148.144)

Quote:

cccyclist wrote:
Make sure the tire is seated properly and also check that the rim tape isn't compromised. Sometimes new folding tires have trouble seating properly at first.




I think you are correct, the tire probably wasn't seated properly. Anyway, I guess the problem has been resolved. The new tube hasn't exploded yet. I probably need to work on my tire changing technique.

Thanks for responding,

Bruce


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Darby
sage
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Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 436
Loc: Orange County California
Re: Tubes new [Re: Darby]
#8956 - 07/22/07 05:39 PM (66.27.148.144)

I think putting a little air in the tube before installing it will make it easier for the tube to seat. I did this on my last tire change and noticed that it also made putting the tire on easier.

Bruce


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bfd
journeyman


Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 77
Bicycle FAQ new [Re: Darby]
#8958 - 07/23/07 06:20 PM (162.15.70.185)

From the Bicycle FAQ:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/blowouts.html

Subject: Blowouts and Sudden Flats
From: Jobst Brandt
Date: August 11, 2004
Bicyclists often report tube failures that they believe occurred inside a tire casing. They believe these are blowouts caused by faulty tubes that split or were cut by the rim tape. However, they also heard a bang, after which the tire was flat. On removing the tire casing from the rim with tire irons, the burst tube is found to have a long slash.

If there was an audible bang, then the tire was off the rim, exposing the inner tube. However, the undamaged tire usually remains on the rim because tires usually fall back into place after exposing a tube. A tube cannot blow out inside the tire with a bang, because a bang is caused by a sudden change in volume, an expansion. Such an expansion is not possible within a tire casing that is essentially air tight.

The resulting clean slash in the tube cannot occur from rim tape that would cause a gradual failure along an abraded line extending beyond the end of the split. A burst into a spoke hole in the rim would cause a starburst hole that is smaller than the rim socket because the tube shrinks when no longer inflated.

Tire blow-off occurs most commonly on tandems where substantial energy of descending mountain roads is converted to heat in rims by braking. In contrast a single bicycle is usually able to dissipate enough of its descending energy by wind drag to not suffer from this. Rim heating with rim brakes on continuous steep descents can increase inflation pressure substantially. For this reason some mountain passes in the Alps prohibit descending by bicycle while up hill riding is permitted. For instance, Zirlerberg between Zirl and Seebach (Innsbruck), a major road between Germany and Austria, is one of these. The road has several runaway tracks for motor vehicles with brake failure.

Formerly, base tapes made of gauze-like tubes, filled with Kapok, were offered for mountain touring. The padding served as insulation between rim and tube to prevent rim heat from increasing pressure. These rim tapes have not been available lately, probably because bicycle shops did not recognize their purpose.

Short tubes, that must be stretched to fit on the rim, can contribute to tire blow-off because a stretched tube tends to rest in the space on the bed of the rim where the tire bead should seat for proper engagement with the hook of the rim sidewall. A tube under the tire bead can prevent proper engagement with a hooked rim to cause blow-off even without excess pressure.

Valve stem separation is less dangerous because it usually occurs during inflation. While riding it generally causes a slow leak, as the vulcanized brass stem gradually separates from the tube. When this occurs, the stem can usually be pulled out entirely to leave a small hole into which a valve stem from a latex tube of a tubular tire will fit. Stems from tubulars have a mushroom end, a clamp washer, and a locknut, that fit ideally. Such a used stem should be part of a tire patch kit.

Tubes with an encircling ribbed zone near the stem are "welded" together at this point and have occasionally developed a leak from no external cause other than tire flexing. Stretching the tube manually at the joint can exposes this weakness before installation. Both this defect and stem separations are quality control problems that in time may be resolved, considering the many tubes of similar manufacture that do not display these faults.


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Darby
sage
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Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 436
Loc: Orange County California
Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: bfd]
#8959 - 07/24/07 01:20 AM (66.27.148.144)


BFD,

Thanks for that bit of information. I had a forth tube blow on Sunday. This time it was a front tube. I had ridden on that tube for 12 miles on Saturday just to test the new tires. It took two days for the tube to pop.

The article clears up a few things for me.

Bruce


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Bruce
contributor
*****

Reged: 12/27/03
Posts: 133
Loc: North of NYC
Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: Darby]
#8960 - 07/24/07 04:09 AM (71.167.181.197)

Bruce,

It is surprising how many cyclists don't know how to mount a tube. It is easy:

  • First seat the tire on the rim on one side only.
  • Fill tube with air so it has shape and is completely round.
  • Put tube onto rim, starting at the valve, work it evenly into the rim and tire.
  • Push the open side of the tire flat to the side of the rim. The tube should be evenly distributed around the rim and not sticking out anywhere. The bead of the tire should now be resting on the outside of the rim.
  • You may need to let some air out of the tube for the next step, but try to keep as inflated as possible.
  • Seat the now open side of the tire at the valve stem. Push the valve up, seat the tire, pull the valve stem down, make sure it is straight and seated well. If not, repeat above steps till it is.
  • Work your way around seating the rest of the tire into the rim.
  • Again, you may have to reduce the pressure in the tube to finish the seating off, but use tire irons to seat the tire opposite of the valve.
  • Now the tire should be completely on the rim, tube should not be pinched anywhere and somewhat inflated.
  • Pump up tire to about 30psi. Deflate. Reinflate to recommended pressure.

    You tire is ready to go and will not blow out. It blows out because you pinched the tube.

    I have used this procedure for years and it never fails. You can't simply inflate a tube in a tire, it will always pinch. You need to inflate to a firm roundness, then install.

    Hope this helps.

    Bruce


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  • skuke
    captain
    *****

    Reged: 12/22/03
    Posts: 323
    Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: Bruce]
    #8961 - 07/24/07 05:15 AM (71.131.2.128)

    Quote:

    Bruce wrote:

  • Pump up tire to about 30psi. Deflate. Reinflate to recommended pressure.







  • I've always added an extra step:

    After pumping the tube to ~30psi (personally, I probably pump up to about 60-70 psi) then deflating, I squeeze the tire bead off the hook on the rim. I use a pinching action with my thumb and index finger so I can unseat both sides of the tire walls at the same time. I work all the way around the circumference of the tire squeezing about every 2 inches.

    This extra step takes less than 20-30 seconds and assures that there is no tube pinched between the bead and rim hook. I then inflate fully.

    During the deflating process above, I don't fully deflate. I allow the tube to retain some shape so it remains in the area of the tire where it belongs. ...too much air makes pinching more difficult so decide for yourself how much is too much.

    When changing tubes at home, I apply some baby talcum powder to the tube before inserting. The powder reduces friction and allows for easier movement of the tube within the tire casing.

    I also prefer tires I can install by hand (without tire levers.) This means no lever pinching of the tube when the last bit of tire bead is put onto the rim. FWIW, I never buy Continental, and almost always buy Michelin or Specialized. I can never install Conti's w/o levers and can alway install Mich/Spec by hand. I haven't tried too many other brands cuz I already know of two that work for me. ...your milage will vary due to rim make/model.

    --------------------
    Skuke
    95 Carbonframes Tetra Pro
    92 Bridgestone MB-1
    90 Moser 51.151


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    Darby
    sage
    *****

    Reged: 08/03/06
    Posts: 436
    Loc: Orange County California
    Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: Bruce]
    #8962 - 07/24/07 05:51 AM (66.27.148.144)

    Quote:

    Bruce wrote:
    Bruce,

    It is surprising how many cyclists don't know how to mount a tube. It is easy:

  • First seat the tire on the rim on one side only.
  • Fill tube with air so it has shape and is completely round.
  • Put tube onto rim, starting at the valve, work it evenly into the rim and tire.
  • Push the open side of the tire flat to the side of the rim. The tube should be evenly distributed around the rim and not sticking out anywhere. The bead of the tire should now be resting on the outside of the rim.
  • You may need to let some air out of the tube for the next step, but try to keep as inflated as possible.
  • Seat the now open side of the tire at the valve stem. Push the valve up, seat the tire, pull the valve stem down, make sure it is straight and seated well. If not, repeat above steps till it is.
  • Work your way around seating the rest of the tire into the rim.
  • Again, you may have to reduce the pressure in the tube to finish the seating off, but use tire irons to seat the tire opposite of the valve.
  • Now the tire should be completely on the rim, tube should not be pinched anywhere and somewhat inflated.
  • Pump up tire to about 30psi. Deflate. Reinflate to recommended pressure.

    You tire is ready to go and will not blow out. It blows out because you pinched the tube.

    I have used this procedure for years and it never fails. You can't simply inflate a tube in a tire, it will always pinch. You need to inflate to a firm roundness, then install.

    Hope this helps.

    Bruce




  • Bruce,

    Thanks for the insight. Like most things in cycling, I have learned by trial and error, and sometimes the errors can get expensive.

    In the year since I bought my Calfee, I have changed a few flats, but hadn't previously experienced any exploding tubes before. Well, your comments are much appreciated. I am now trying to learn how to fix everything on my bike so I do not need to rely on a bike shop to fix it. I bought my first of probably many repair books. So you may see a few really dumb repair questions from me.

    Bruce


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    Darby
    sage
    *****

    Reged: 08/03/06
    Posts: 436
    Loc: Orange County California
    Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: skuke]
    #8963 - 07/24/07 05:54 AM (66.27.148.144)

    Quote:

    skuke wrote:
    Quote:

    Bruce wrote:

  • Pump up tire to about 30psi. Deflate. Reinflate to recommended pressure.







  • I've always added an extra step:






    Thanks for sharing your experience.

    Bruce


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    Bruce
    contributor
    *****

    Reged: 12/27/03
    Posts: 133
    Loc: North of NYC
    Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: skuke]
    #8970 - 07/28/07 05:11 PM (71.167.185.196)

    Skuke,

    Yes, I forgot that step! But I have gotten good enough to know when the tube is pinched so I generally skip it, but will do it if I suspect a problem.

    Thanks for adding the step, as it is good to know for first timers.

    Bruce


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    Darby
    sage
    *****

    Reged: 08/03/06
    Posts: 436
    Loc: Orange County California
    Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: Bruce]
    #8971 - 07/28/07 06:14 PM (66.27.148.144)

    I am wondering about the importance of not using tools to install a tire? I have heard from several people that buy tires based on how easy they are to install by hand.

    I have Continentals and they seem to do most everything well but are not easy to install by hand. I can can get all but the last four or five inches of the tire install by hand and then need to break out the tools.

    The reason I starting riding with the Continental Grand Prix 4000 is that they are a comfortable tire to ride on. Not sure how well they will wear. The tires I buy are for training and club rides, I am too slow to race. Is there another good all around tire to replace my Conti's?

    Bruce


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    Dave_Thompson
    prophet
    *****

    Reged: 12/19/03
    Posts: 717
    Loc: Spokane, Washington
    Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: Darby]
    #8972 - 07/28/07 09:17 PM (67.185.223.184)

    Bruce:

    On Conti tires (and most others) there is a ridge on the tire that sits a millimeter or two just above the rim when the tire is seated. When the tire is on and inflated, spin the wheel and watch to see that this ridge is concentric and pretty even from the rim, on both sides of the tire. If the tube is caught underneath the tire bead, you will be able to see a gross irregularity in the concentricity of this ridge.


    --------------------
    Steel lover, but then I like Ti with carbon too.
    Licensed bike geek.


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    dfcas
    contributor


    Reged: 12/19/03
    Posts: 143
    Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: Dave_Thompson]
    #8973 - 07/29/07 01:35 AM (72.84.32.40)

    I also powder a new tire before installing it.Put a Tablespoon full in it,and work it around,like puuting flour in a cakepan.

    Michelin? recommends seating the tire starting OPPOSITE the valve stem,and finishing at the valve stem.Semms curious,but I think it is easier.

    --------------------
    no signature


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    Darby
    sage
    *****

    Reged: 08/03/06
    Posts: 436
    Loc: Orange County California
    Re: Bicycle FAQ new [Re: dfcas]
    #8975 - 07/29/07 03:34 AM (66.27.148.144)

    Quote:

    dfcas wrote:
    I also powder a new tire before installing it.Put a Tablespoon full in it,and work it around,like puuting flour in a cakepan.

    Michelin? recommends seating the tire starting OPPOSITE the valve stem,and finishing at the valve stem.Semms curious,but I think it is easier.




    I have noticed on Michelin's two wheel website, http://tinyurl.com/2juw5e , that they have a guide showing the ride characteristics of each tire. I didn't see any cycle tires that showed they provided a high level of comfort. The pro race2 seem to be good tires but maybe not necessarily made for long club rides where comfort is more important than performance.

    After I go through the the Conti GP 4000s I have now, I will probabaly go back to the Conti GP 4-Season, go with a Michelin or try the Vredestein Fortezzas.

    Any experience with the Vredestein Fortezzas?

    Bruce


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