dpascal
new member
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 8
Loc: Jerusalem ,Israel
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Hi,
I recently got my "Fina Estampa" which is my first Pegoretti, The big smile on my face after 2 pedal strokes should answer my question but I wonder if anybody can answer my question:
Why is the "Fina Estampa" a bit heavy (for an Aluminum bike) ? 1380 gr is the average weight of Titanium bikes,
I know how they are comfort and massively built but still...
How can it be that a magician like Dario makes Aluminum bikes that are 300 gr heavier than some other Aluminum bikes on the market ?
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dbrk
contributor
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
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I don't think much about the weight of a bike and have no particular fondness for alloy in particular. The ONLY aluminum bike I own now is the Fina (and I have likely owned 15 or so). All of the rest have a ride so inferior to steel, ti, or carbon that I wouldn't go near them again. But the Fina's ride is different, so much better that I don't know how Dario achieves it. Further, I have packed up the Fina and subjected it to international travel in a Sci-con and then proceeded to beat the crap out of it in Italy. This bike will last. It's not a one-season-wonder that you pay a fortune for and then it looks like a pile of beer cans. Many aluminum builders tell you up front that their bikes are only good for X number of miles or just one or two years, like Cinelli nowadays. Of course if this is your objective then that's fine but if you want a bike that really will endure the slings and arrows of hard use and ride like a champ, then it's Dario's build. Perhaps there are others but I have been very disappointed with alloy bikes built by some of the very well-known, nay, famous names. Maybe it is the price you pay for a few grams that the Pegorettis ride and last.
dbrk
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dpascal
new member
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 8
Loc: Jerusalem ,Israel
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dbrk,
My experience with Alloy bikes confirms your reply, Most are short-lived bone crashers, Howerver, Did you get a chance to ride the Eddie Merckx team SC ? I didn't but the guys at competitive cyclist told me that they're even more comfortable than the fina and weigh less, What do you think ? Can a company like Eddie Merckx make bikes that will not last for long ?
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dbrk
contributor
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
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You know, Eddy has never let us down. Take, for example, the MX Leader. When Motorola rode these bikes he argued that a heavier bike that ascends less well is less of a liabiity than a lighter bike that descends so poorly. The MXL is a GREAT descender, though it is something of a brick. I love my brick, it was Axel's own bike.
I've not ridden the new Merckx alloys so I can't comment on the ride. I do have pals who have dented theirs (two to be precise) by handlebar swivels. Now I have had such a mishap when I fell on my Fina, but there was no such dent in my top tube. The Merckx seems to achieve the better weight by thinning the tubes. I would have a cow if such a thing happened because, as it is with alloy, once the bike is dented it cannot be fixed (unless you can suck it out with one of those car fixing gizmos) and you likely compromise the frame's safety. So these Merckx are race frames: go down and it's toast. The Fina I think is more durable and just as sweet a ride as any alloy bike I've tried. Eddy is savvy and has never done us wrong but modern race bikes have assumed the disposable features of our consumerist society. I resist that (a bit like banging your head against the wall, no?) but there is something to be said for a frame that you are _not_ likely to race and would like to keep around.
dbrk
btw, I am a huge huge huge fan of both merckx and pegoretti...so all of this was complimentary.
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1centaur
journeyman
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
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Here's a question related to this thread that I've been wondering about for a while:
Does the Fina ride incredibly for it's weight (i.e., compared against steel and Ti bikes which weigh about the same), or only great against aluminum? I have heard the thought that you might as well buy steel or Ti to get the attributes of those materials because the Fina is "a pig" on the scale. Yet most people rave on and on about the Fina's ride. So what do you say Pegoretti fans who have extensive experience with other materials - unbelievably great ride, or unbelievably great ride for aluminum?
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"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong
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terryb
friend
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 39
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Why is it heavy? because it's built like a pig. And I can say this, because I own one. It's a great bike aesthetically, but frankly I get a much better ride out of any of my steel bikes, some of which weigh a full pound less than my Fina (with comparable components.)
I know many say it has a mythical "just as good as steel" ride, but I have to ask - why ride a heavier aluminum bike when you can the same with less expense and less weight? And as far as its comparison to my other aluminum bikes (Top Level, Dream, Orbea Starship) to my perhaps unrefined palate, it rides exactly the same. If you're buying any top quality aluminum frame, chances are it's not going to ride like the teeth fracturing aluminum frames of the past.
Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful bike, and I'm glad I own it. However, I'm also glad I paid less than 1/2 retail. It may sound harsh, but I think the "myth of the Fina" is just that, a myth. I won't bother to speculate on how it got started, but I do have a rather cynical opinion.
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dpascal
new member
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 8
Loc: Jerusalem ,Israel
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Since I posted the question in the top of this thread
I had the chance of putting my behind on a few other alloy bikes, I can say that based on my experience, as a whole package (price, stiffness, durability, comfort, weight, looks, handling & cornering,) the Fina has the best value for money,
Another thing about weight:
The alloy bikes which are considered light (and I'm not talking about 950g r-2700$-disposable-tin-cans) are no more than 150 gr lighter, The colnago dream is actually 90gr heavier,
I prefer reducing the 150gr by going to the toilet before the ride instead of sacrificing durability and power transfer,
The "myth" of the Fina comes from the fact that it provides
the rare balance of qualities mentioned above,
Yes, There are bikes out there that do some of the things better but as a whole package within this price range....I doubt,
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Climb01742
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
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i own a fina. and i really like it. it is heavy, yet while riding it, it feels like perhaps my fastest accelerating bike. and while it can't match the smoothness of my mx leader, it does feel, to me anyway, as smooth as almost any other steel i've ridden. i don't know about "the myth" of the fina. i simply know how mine feels when i ride it. really nice. its weight seems to be immaterial while i'm riding.
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When in doubt, shut up and pedal.
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terryb
friend
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 39
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I'm glad you like your Fina, and I like mine too. It's a beautiful bicycle.
My question about this bike is very simple - why bother with a heavier aluminum bike, with the major downside of aluminum (namely life expectancy) when you can get a superior ride from steel in a lighter, less expensive package?
I bought mine because it was a steal on eBay and because I love the Ayers Rock paint scheme. However, compared to the other bikes I ride it's in no way superior to any of the steel ones and only slightly different than my aluminum bikes. Among aluminum, I find the ride on rough roads to be just as shrill, and with a 1-2 pound weight penalty. (Not sure about the source of you Dream comment, but mine, with comparable components weighs .75 pounds less.)
For me, the superior qualities of this bike are a myth. And at $1999 for frame/fork, it's an expensive myth. There are so many other choices in that price range that in my opinion provide a much better package.
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dpascal
new member
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 8
Loc: Jerusalem ,Israel
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Have a look at the following website:
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=roadframes
Please show me a decent bike that is more than 150gr lighter
than the Fina whithin this price range, Also compare the weight of the Fina (~1380 gr) to Colnago Dream,
You say there are steel bike which are 1 pound less, offer the same acceleration (stiffness) and are less expensive,
I would like you to name a specific bike,
My credit card is ready 
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jerk
new member
Reged: 01/10/04
Posts: 5
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why bother with a aluminum bike when you can get a steel or ti frame as light if not lighter? because terry a steel bike or a ti frame as light as a fina would be a whippy noodle that any rider worth his salt would over power anytime the peloton kicked it up a notch...like wise the torsional rigidity would be lacking making the thing useless on fast descents or in hard fast cornering....the fina is a robust classics style race bike and at that task it is far and away the best....the jerk is sorry you don't have the ability to push this bike to its limits where it really shines but any ti or steel frame in the same weight range as a fina is a far different creature which wouldn't pass muster under any professional racer except in rare circumstances.
jerk
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Climb01742
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
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rock on, sir jerk.
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When in doubt, shut up and pedal.
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terryb
friend
Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 39
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Don't need to push my bikes, I'm a recreational rider and nothing more. And no aspirations to be anything more than that. Unlike most art critic bike reviewers though, I actually own the ones I talk about. So at least I am speaking from the position of having had some actual experience.
Truth be told jerk - I'm pretty sure that Dario could build a bike out of 1st century BC lead pipe stolen from an excavated Roman villa and you and the rest of the Dario groupies would pronounce it the finest bicycle ever built. Me? I tend to be a bit more discerning. I love my Fina, because it is one beautiful bicycle. However, I am actually capable of being honest about it's faults. It's a pig, a big heavy pig. It doesn't ride as well as any of my steel bikes - plain and simple. And no, my steel bikes are not noodles. I'd be surprised if you, the great 3rd Person Orator would consider a Colnago MxL a noodle. Afterall, second to the Fina, lugged steel can't be beat, right? Nor is my S3 Vanilla a noodle, and it weighs a mere 2 pounds less than the beloved Fina.
I'm sure racers across the world are flocking to the 19.9 lb. Finas with abandon. Perhaps the Canny Six13 is jsut a rebadged Fina? Man, I'd love to see any "real rider" take that honker up Ventoux in this day and age. Maybe you've done it? Please tell us.
P.S. consider dropping the 3rd person crap - it's certainly the #1 internet affectation.
Edited by terryb (04/26/04 03:50 PM)
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dpascal
new member
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 8
Loc: Jerusalem ,Israel
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We seem to have a celebration of disinformation here,
A few facts:
My Fina weighs 7.8kg (17.1 pound),
Fina frame weight is 1.38 kg (3.04 pound)
Master X light weight is 1.75kg (3.85 pound)
Colnago dream B stay is 1.57kg (3.46 pound)
The 3000$ colnago prince SL is 1.35kg (2.97 pound)
Vanilla S3 is 1.52kg (3.52 pound)
Terry, Are sure you're not stepping on the scale when you weigh the Fina ?
Different bikes cause different people different feelings and I believe you when you say that as a recreational rider you personally prefer the Colnago MXL but facts cannot be twisted and all the "lighter" bikes you mentioned are pigs that were left loose for a week in McDonald's central meat refrigerator,
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1centaur
journeyman
Reged: 12/24/03
Posts: 126
Loc: Massachusetts
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Just to make sure both "sides" are on the same page here, what size frames are we talking about here? I just read all the posts again and nobody is mentioning size.
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"You never make a gift of Ventoux"
Eddie Merckx to Lance Armstrong
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dpascal
new member
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 8
Loc: Jerusalem ,Israel
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Size 56
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jerk
new member
Reged: 01/10/04
Posts: 5
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terry- the fina isn't built for ventoux first of all it's built for classics style raceing with lots of short climbs and bad(ish) road conditions. no, a colnago mxl would be a similar type of bike....just heavier. also never a frame anyone would use to climb a hors categorie climb.....did you see any of those cannondales at flanders? at roubaix? at liege? no....you didn't. because there are horses for courses....fact of the matter is i don't like steel or titanium bikes very much.... to get them to ride the way i want a bike to ride for the type of racig i am (was) not an complete emabarrasment to my family at....an alloy frame or a carbon frame is going to be either lighter with the same snap and rigidity or it will be stiffer torsionally and snappier at the same weight. there is an aside to this though....what makes a bike great is the geometry...I WOULD rather ride a pegoretti made out of sewer pipes than the latest unobtanium material bike if the pegoretti was built with the proper bb drop, cs length, front center, trail/rake. these measurements and these measurements alone are what seperates a great bike from an also ran. i could count the people alive on two hands who REALLY really get those above measurements. one of them is dario pegoretti, none of them are product managers for cannondale.
jerk
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dbrk
contributor
Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 201
Loc: Finger Lakes, New York
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Gosh, I have no idea the weight of my Fina, it being a 55cm with some extra headtube. However, in comparison to the Colnago Dream that I sold, I would rate the Fina about a zillion times more comfortable and fun to ride. Last year I took it to Umbria and Tuscany and rode up and up and up, rode it hard, abused it the day I got terribly lost, and throughout all such indignities it held up beautifully, rode like a champ, always felt great underneath, In contrast, the Dream (no carbon rear) was likely the harshest bike and hardest on the pavement rider I have owned with the possible exception of the Principia Rex.
My Fina is built with Record Ergo 10 but not with the carbon cranks. I reckon it weighs about 19 lbs with the Time pedals (heavier, older ones) and the Eurus wheels. If a bike is designed properly and fits well then the weight is far less important or even noticeable, that being just my experience. I love Dario's bikes. I'm awaitin' Emma of Big Legs with great anticipation.
dbrk
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marron
new member
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 14
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The precise reason I love the Merckx MX-Leader; it's a pig, but a pig that fits like a dream. Besides, I don't race any more so what do I care.
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Climb01742
journeyman
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 71
Loc: Concord, MA
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marron--ditto on the mxl. without a doubt the heaviest frame i own...equally without a doubt, it rides so beautifully. i love that "pig".
--------------------
When in doubt, shut up and pedal.
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